Pistols, SBR's, etc...

[Drillboss]

Since I have a few good friends that happen to be attorneys, I'm not sure why I'm asking y'all for legal advice, but here goes.

I've seen it stated that if a lower receiver is built into a rifle, then it can't later become a pistol.

So let's say a stripped lower was originally purchased and "registered" through the NICS as "other" and was then built into a rifle, but never registered through any other system. What happens then if the lower receiver is later stripped back down and rebuilt as a pistol lower with a brace instead of a stock?

Having said that, I have a lower receiver that is engraved with:

LRB Arms
U.S. Rifle
M 15SA
CAL. 5.56 MM
XXXXX3

Can this lower receiver be built into a pistol? Please post references if you have them.

Regards

[Drillboss]

So I did a little research and answered one of my questions:

A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.

Good thing I used a virgin lower receiver for my pistol build. These laws are simply insane.

[Lastrites]

To build a pistol it should start as a virgin lower, now that doesn't mean you couldn't say buy a PSA pre-built lower that may have a stock on it when purchased. The mentioned PSA has not been assembled into a firearm configuration yet so one could remove the stock and proceed with a short upper to build a pistol as it would have been transferred as an "Other", not as a rifle.

The engraving on the lower has nothing to do with determining whether or not it's been assembled as a rifle or pistol, all has to do with how it was originally assembled. Your above paragraph of building a rifle and then deciding to go backwards into a pistol I cannot condone but only you would ultimately know. Lowers are still cheap.

[Kswhitetails]

To build a pistol it should start as a virgin lower, now that doesn't mean you couldn't say buy a PSA pre-built lower that may have a stock on it when purchased. The mentioned PSA has not been assembled into a firearm configuration yet so one could remove the stock and proceed with a short upper to build a pistol as it would have been transferred as an "Other", not as a rifle.

The engraving on the lower has nothing to do with determining whether or not it's been assembled as a rifle or pistol, all has to do with how it was originally assembled. Your above paragraph of building a rifle and then deciding to go backwards into a pistol I cannot condone but only you would ultimately know. Lowers are still cheap.

Are you sure about this? This gets into very dangerous territory as far as legal limitations go. From what I understand, not being a lawyer, is that in order for a lower to be registered as an "other" it has to either 1) come assembled with a pistol tube and brace 2) come assembled without any tube included 3) come stripped with no parts at all. Otherwise, if it has a stock, it's a rifle lower. Period. Check into this, OP.

Secondly, from my understanding of the engraving issue, this ONLY comes into play when you want to build an NFA SBR/pistol/FA/"firearm" using something like an 80% lower, at which point you're required by law to engrave the lower with a unique identifying serial number. This gets really hairy when using 80% lowers which is another facet that I do not deign to give advice on. Otherwise, the lower can say whatever it says, and not be an issue, because any lower that can be transferred legally already has a factory engraved serial number. (There are requirements written into the law that define the size and depth minimums of this engraving, you can't just scratch in a number and call it good.)

The "other" part of the lower registration happens when your FFL receives the lower from the sender, or when the sender transfers it to your FFL; and then transfers it to you as an "other". Basically, when your FFL transfers the lower to you, if it has a stock on it, it's a rifle lower. If there isn't a rifle or carbine tube with it, and no stock, then it's an "other". Advisable to check with your FFL before embarking on this trip. You can make a registered "other" lower into either a pistol or a rifle, or an SBR/FA/"firearm" (if you pay and wait), but you CANNOT make a "rifle" registered lower into a pistol.

This is serious stuff, and DB, as you say, you've already got the right source of info. Even a mistakenly erroneous or mis-typed or poorly worded post could lead someone to a bad end. There are a few good places for information, but finding an attorney who's familiar with FFA/FFL law is my best advice. Even if the OP has good representation inside his circle of friends, the next reader is likely to be less well endowed in the Rolodex.

[Les]

NFA is indeed nuts, and confusing. I would've never thought a pistol brace would be legal.

[Lastrites]

Are you sure about this? This gets into very dangerous territory as far as legal limitations go. From what I understand, not being a lawyer, is that in order for a lower to be registered as an "other" it has to either 1) come assembled with a pistol tube and brace 2) come assembled without any tube included 3) come stripped with no parts at all. Otherwise, if it has a stock, it's a rifle lower. Period. Check into this, OP.

I am 100% sure about it, they are transferred as "Other" does not have to have a pistol tube on it and indeed one can use a regular receiver extension if one wants but best not have an extra stock laying around that does not have a legal use for. The stock does Not make it a rifle lower, it can only become a rifle lower if the "psa" stocked lower was first fully assembled into a rifle and then from that point forward it can only be a rifle lower. As noted if one receives the psa stocked lower from the ffl they would process the paper work as "other" if the by chance processed as a "rifle" that would have been done incorrectly. Since these have not been fully assembled the manufacture would process their paper work as "other" also. I've been in the AR pistol game for at least the past 10 years, I've read plenty of atf letters regarding all sorts of different oddities regarding AR pistols, this is not new to me but to someone new to the AR pistol our friends at the atf sure make difficult to comprehend.

One can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol and be in compliance, one cannot go from an originally built rifle to pistol and back...illegal. The Thompson Contender is one such weapon when started out as a pistol that can also be converted to a rifle and back to pistol. You start with the pistol, take off the short barrel and install the long barrel then add your stock. When going back to the pistol from the rifle configuration, you remove the stock first, then the long barrel attach your pistol grip and then the short barrel.

eta; Les it is indeed screwy and I too never thought that the braces would pass muster and I hope they continue on and don't fall they way of the bump stock.

[Pugsbrew]

Secondly, from my understanding of the engraving issue, this ONLY comes into play when you want to build an NFA SBR/pistol/FA/"firearm" using something like an 80% lower, at which point you're required by law to engrave the lower with a unique identifying serial number. This gets really hairy when using 80% lowers which is another facet that I do not deign to give advice on. Otherwise, the lower can say whatever it says, and not be an issue, because any lower that can be transferred legally already has a factory engraved serial number. (There are requirements written into the law that define the size and depth minimums of this engraving, you can't just scratch in a number and call it good.)

I'm not too sure about this statement. I don't think the marking of the lower only applies to the 80% lower. I could be totally wrong, but I would go above and beyond to ensure the markings were correct. Consult a real lawyer.

https://johnpierceesq.com/what-are-the-requirements-for-engraving-an-item-you-are-building-on-a-form-1/

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/479.102

[Lastrites]

A Form 1, where you are the builder/manufacture of say a sbr needs;
"The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer." So say you have an Aero lower that your converting to 6.5G sbr using a Trust, you would still need to have it engraved with whatever name you want on to identify it as being re-manufactured so in my case "Lastrites Trust" with my city and state being required too if I recall correctly. Wouldn't need a serial number as it already has one from Aero engraved into it, 80%er would need a serial number added. The caliber marking on the barrel would suffice for either.

Would suggest if your going to get into the NFA game, contact a lawyer that specializes in Trusts and especially gun trusts and have them set it up properly for you. The nice thing about a trust is one can add other family members or friends as trustee's who would be allowed to have access to your nfa item, you can delete them too. This is good in the advent something happens to you and these nfa items then can be handed down the line and kept in family.

[Sticks]

They also have to go through the background now, at least on the initial sending. I've heard that after the fact that you can add them w/o the hassle but not confirmed.