CZ 527 vs Howa Mini Action 1500 - pros vs cons?

[Friendly]

looking to make a lightweight medium range hunting rifle for coastal deer up here in British Canuckistan and I've decided upon the 6.5 Grendel.

I've had a 527 Carbine in 7.62x39 before and loved it...really wishing CZ would release a carbine with the 6.5 Grendel. I know nothing about Howa, but constantly see praise for the CZ while others like the Howa 1500 but have complaints. most complaints have been vague, mentioned in passing with nothing more concrete than some disliking how easy it is to accidentally bump the mag release and drop the magazine.

the Howa has the benefit of being better priced...$900 vs $1150 for the CZ American or Varmint MTR. it also has the benefit of being lightweight (5.7lbs) with a 20" HB while the CZ's would need to be rebarreled or cut and crowned, to meet my lightweight requirements.

I also have a bunch of questions. I've been shooting pistol for years, but have ignored rifle for the most part...so wonder a few things.

- how much lighter would the CZ American, VMTR and Howa get if the barrel was cut back to 18.5"?
- I know there are 6 popular barrel contours...so assuming the CZA is a #1 or #2, how much lower vibration/flex would it suffer from at the shorter length?
- focusing on making the rifle lighter, can the bolt/barrel be fluted? how would that affect it's operation?
- for the gits n shiggles of it, when the CZA barrel is cut back to 18.5", would that allow for enough head to thread for a muzzle break?
- what stock options are there for the CZ 527 and Howa MA to make it lighter, stiffer and maintain waterproofing (it's darned wet up here in Prince Rupert...wettest place in Canada!)
- CZ comes with a nice set trigger...what options are there to upgrade the Howa's trigger?

thank you for your patience and kindness in helping me understand!

[Sixoeight]

looking to make a lightweight medium range hunting rifle for coastal deer up here in British Canuckistan and I've decided upon the 6.5 Grendel.

I've had a 527 Carbine in 7.62x39 before and loved it...really wishing CZ would release a carbine with the 6.5 Grendel. I know nothing about Howa, but constantly see praise for the CZ while others like the Howa 1500 but have complaints. most complaints have been vague, mentioned in passing with nothing more concrete than some disliking how easy it is to accidentally bump the mag release and drop the magazine.

the Howa has the benefit of being better priced...$900 vs $1150 for the CZ American or Varmint MTR. it also has the benefit of being lightweight (5.7lbs) with a 20" HB while the CZ's would need to be rebarreled or cut and crowned, to meet my lightweight requirements.

I recently considered the same question. I ended up going with the Howa. This was difficult because I love CZ. I have an old CZ 82 in Makarov and a CZ SP01 Tactical 9mm para. They are sweet guns and I am sure the 527 is as well. That said there are some big issues I have with it. 1. No threaded barrel - I plan to suppress this rifle. It can be threaded but that is more cost on top of an already more expensive rifle. 2. I have read about issues with the scope and bolt handle clearance even on the new ones with the new bolt handle. It comes up too high and means it has to run right along your scope leaving no room for your fingers and/or you have to run high rings that prevent any sort of reasonable cheek weld. 3. It's too long for my liking. I want a handier rifle for hiking and movement through the woods and in a blind.

It does have some features that I do truely feel I am missing out on. 1. All metal (I plan to fix this in the Howa by ditching the plastic) 2. That sweet sweet set trigger! I have always wanted one and I still do. It really may not he practical or all that advantageous hunting but I still want it just to have it. 3. It's a more beautiful gun in it's stock form.

I also have a bunch of questions. I've been shooting pistol for years, but have ignored rifle for the most part...so wonder a few things.

- how much lighter would the CZ American, VMTR and Howa get if the barrel was cut back to 18.5"?

It's hard to say but from my experience it never saves as much weight as you would expect especially since the end of the barrel tends to be the thinnest. They are both pretty light rifles to begin with but every ounce counts.

- I know there are 6 popular barrel contours...so assuming the CZA is a #1 or #2, how much lower vibration/flex would it suffer from at the shorter length?

This I have never heard of before as an issue. The shorter the barrel the stiffer it will be. I can't imagine you would end up with vibrations no matter how short you cut it down. The point of aim will shift but that just requires sighting in the rifle.

- focusing on making the rifle lighter, can the bolt/barrel be fluted? how would that affect it's operation?

Absolutely and it if done by a competent gunsmith it will not impact function other than being lighter.

- what stock options are there for the CZ 527 and Howa MA to make it lighter, stiffer and maintain waterproofing (it's darned wet up here in Prince Rupert...wettest place in Canada!)

There are chassis systems otherwise there are only wood stocks that I know of.

- CZ comes with a nice set trigger...what options are there to upgrade the Howa's trigger?

The Howa trigger is also supposed to be quite nice. It can't touch the set trigger but it is nice none the less. You can buy timney and rifle basix triggers for the 1500 line but I have read that some people have issues with the install in the mini action. It can be done though.

thank you for your patience and kindness in helping me understand!

Just my thoughts - no problem!

[Friendly]

hello Six, thanks for your answers!

regarding the issue with the bolt. it was a problem, my 527 Carbine suffered from it, which is why I ended up selling it. however, I've read in other threads that issue has been remedied. also read about mod's or upgrades that removed that issue if you have a model with it.

my query about vibration...I used the wrong word, I meant flex. how much less flex would there be as the barrel is shortened. is there any base line to calculate how much stiffer the barrel will get as it's cut back. it wasn't really a concern...I just read about flex and accuracy issues on longer pencil contour barrels, especially as they heat up.

I've seen the chassis Howa has...the are butt ugly! I was thinking about carbon fiber or other synthetic options. though...could always get a good carpenter to port the stock like the Savage Lightweight Hunter stocks.

I'll have to look up more on the third party trigger options.

on the aside...it would be curious to rebarrel a 527 Carbine to a 6.5 Grendel. any recommendations for good barrels that work for the 527 action?

[Frontier Gear]

I've never had the CZ, but the Howa has been very nice. I'm not sure about Canada, but in the states you can pick up a Howa barreled action and save some money if you plan on upgrading the stock anyways. $900 and $1150 seems outrageous. I know that there is a conversion rate, but I paid somewhere around $430 US for my Howa. Replacing the bottom metal on the Howa is a must so that adds another $100 roughly. The wood stock on the CZ looks a lot better than the Howa's plastic stock, but the plastic is more water proof and possibly lighter. Both guns get good reviews and have loyal followers. I really like the Howa and have no reason to buy a CZ, but I have to admit that the CZ looks a lot nicer from the factory.

[Sixoeight]

On the barrel flex topic IMO I wouldn't even consider that factor for these rifles. They are already not crazy thin or particularly long barrels in any of the stock configurations that are currently available. Yes the barrel will flex less at a shorter length but no you won't ever been able to perceive a difference shooting it. You will also lose some of the Grendel's velocity. I believe Bill Alexander the guy who developed the round suggests a minimum barrel length of 20". Now is that set in stone? No not at all, but a bit more velocity will have more impact on performance that the barrel flex.

[VASCAR2]

The difference from a 24” 6.5 Grendel compared to a 20” 6.5 Grendel is about 80-100 FPS. Basically a 123 Grain Match bullet with a 24” barrel will chronograph from 2600-2625 FPS. The same loads out of my 20” 6.5 Grendel are 2500-2525 FPS. Either barrel length will keep a 123 grain match bullet supersonic past 1000 yards.

Going from 20” 6.5 Grendel down to 18” I get 2460 - 2470 FPS with the same load. The issue to me is the expansion threshold for a particular hunting bullet and the distance I can ethically take a game animal. Many monolithic bullets like Barnes need 2000 FPS to expand. Cup and core bullets like Hornady 123 grain SST will expand down to 1800 FPS. The Nosler 129 grain Accu Bond Long Range (ABLR) supposedly expands down to 1300 FPS. The higher elevation above sea level the thinner the atmosphere so velocity stays higer compared to sea level.

Most 18” 6.5 Grendel rifles will keep velocity high enough to ethically hunt to 350 yards on medium size game with factory 123 grain SST.

[PA452]

I have a CZ 527 that started life as a Carbine 7.62x39 and I had it rebarreled to 6.5 Grendel. The smith had a stainless 6.5mm Bartlein barrel available from a cancelled customer project. The rifle turned out great, crazy accurate with the right bullets. I tend to use 100gr bullets; it loves 100gr AMAX. For a hunting bullet it's loving Nosler 100gr BT accuracy-wise. I went through some others that either didn't shoot as well or I didn't like the terminal performance.

I do have the bolt handle issue that's been mentioned, as it's an older 527. It's only been a problem with certain rings, but yeah, no way I can fit a finger between the bolt handle and a scope, not even close. I know I can replace it, but then the finish won't match so I live with it. (Since the barrel was stainless, I had the smith Cerakote it in black as I didn't want the stainless look. So the rest of the gun would match, I had him do the whole thing.)

All that said, I'm looking at a Howa now too. Don't plan on selling the 527, at least I don't think so, but I want to set up the Howa a little differently for a different purpose. I will say I sometimes have feeding issues with my 527 Grendel, but pretty much just if I try to feed a round too slow. I find on that rifle you have to just go for it fast and it generally works fine. Go slow and there are issues. This has been a problem for me when trying to use this rifle at night for coyotes off the front porch. I don't want to chamber a round inside, but loading quietly once outside is nearly impossible. That's one nice thing about the Howa; I'd feel more comfortable chambering a round inside with the 3-position safety.

I'd have the Howa by now, only thing holding me up is the decision over whether to just buy one with the factory stock or buy the barreled action and go aftermarket. I don't want to go the chassis route though, and it seems like the only other aftermarket options are Boyds and another company I forget the name of, but they want a good bit more than I'd want to pay and it sounds like I'll probably have to do some fitting with the Boyds. Still, Boyds is probably the route I'm going to take.

ETA: On the subject of my feeding issues, I don't know that that would be a problem with a factory CZ Grendel. I have other 527s, and they all feed great.

Also, a few pics of my 527 Grendel:

[Sixoeight]

The difference from a 24” 6.5 Grendel compared to a 20” 6.5 Grendel is about 80-100 FPS. Basically a 123 Grain Match bullet with a 24” barrel will chronograph from 2600-2625 FPS. The same loads out of my 20” 6.5 Grendel are 2500-2525 FPS. Either barrel length will keep a 123 grain match bullet supersonic past 1000 yards.

Going from 20” 6.5 Grendel down to 18” I get 2460 - 2470 FPS with the same load. The issue to me is the expansion threshold for a particular hunting bullet and the distance I can ethically take a game animal. Many monolithic bullets like Barnes need 2000 FPS to expand. Cup and core bullets like Hornady 123 grain SST will expand down to 1800 FPS. The Nosler 129 grain Accu Bond Long Range (ABLR) supposedly expands down to 1300 FPS. The higher elevation above sea level the thinner the atmosphere so velocity stays higer compared to sea level.

Most 18” 6.5 Grendel rifles will keep velocity high enough to ethically hunt to 350 yards on medium size game with factory 123 grain SST.

I know the velocity difference is minimal but my point was that as small as it is barrel flex from cutting a few inches off the barrel will contribute even less to the accuracy. But you are correct that the velocity difference is also inconsequential.

[VASCAR2]

As light as the barrel is on my 6.5 Grendel Cz American I doulbt if it would be over 6 ounces. The biggest advantage would be improved handling qualities and a barrel diameter large enough to thread for a suppressor. Since I live in Illinois suppressors are prohibited.

The light weight Howa barrel might be to thin in diameter to thread at 18.5”. There were a couple threads considering chopping the light weight barrel for use with a suppressor. I was seriously considering buying a Howa 20” action with threaded barrel when I got a great deal on my Cz.

[jkingrph]

I have a 527 American in 6.5 Grendel, with a Leupold VX3i 3.5-10 40mm scope and have on bolt handle issues, It clears the ocular lens somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 inch.

It does per factory specs have a 24" barrel and balances nicely. I honestly wish that the barrel were heavier, the way I do most of my shooting, targets from a bench rest, so weight is not so much of a problem for me. For a lightweight sporter I could not ask for anything to shoot better, my bench is so piled up with junk I have not gotten around to reloading for it but all the factory ammo I have shot, Wolf and Hornandy , has given sub MOA groups if I do my part, and not shoot too fast.

If you were to cut the barrel down, I do not think it would contribute to flex, but would give a stiffer barrel.

One thing that would change, although I have no idea of any effect on accuracy, is harmonics or vibration frequency. Think of the barrel like a wind chime tube, same diameter but different length vibrates differently giving a different tone. I realize this analogy is not 100% as the barrel is not always a straight tube but tapered and often with a curved radius at the chamber area.

[Stinky Coyote]

I have both.

I understand mcmillan can inlet for the 527 off the rimfire stock if you want synthetic cz option. I have considered this and having the metal cerekoted.

If i wanted to drown one routinely i think i'd go the route of the howa mini action in an mdt chassis, i have two of these. One has been to my machinest. He took 3 oz out of action, and 7 oz out of the chassis. I understand 20" is the ideal barrel length for the Grendel although the action is so short it makes for a short rifle with 20" anyway. I guess i'd figure out my max intended range and run some numbers before i went chopping but i call for coyotes a lot so i'd prefer 24" for max velocity and distance potential as they hang up 500-600 yards routinely and i like to try them when they do...and may rebarrel to proof research carbon on that skeletonized chassis, i'd go 24" but 20" would be pretty bad azz.

Reason i say chassis is it's aluminum and the magazine is plastic...the howa action is already cerekoted. There's less to rust. It's super simple to strip down and clean. That's the set up that offers more versatility to handle moisture and also do a lightweight build off imo. So many different butt stock options right down to a 4oz carbon from smoke composites etc. Can also get folding stock adapter and have a little rig that will stuff into your pack no problem.

hth

[roor]

[klr]

Buying new mags suck at $50 but there should be bottom metals for AR mags if you want to give that route.

AR mags are too wide and won't fit in between the frame rails on the Howa Mini action.

My experience: First Howa was chambered crooked and had to go back. Its replacement was only half as crooked. I also bought a barreled action and it is chambered slightly crooked too. Both are accurate enough for deer out to 250 yds, but it's disappointing that the chambers are not cut correctly and don't have the same accuracy as my .223 Howa Mini (which has a straight chamber.)

[roor]

http://www.cdiprecisiongunworksstore.com/howa-1500-mini-action-dbm/

[Sixoeight]

Definite inletting required on the cdi