Satern is starting to accept returns

[JASmith]

At no time in my communications with Satern have they mentioned Grendel II or any other name for a new chamber. Only that the throat of my barrel would be "scraped deeper."

Should you have a preference for the SAAMI chamber or the Satern chamber, there might be some wisdom in clarifying what is meant by "scraped deeper."

I am hoping that the phrase is a short-form translation to what was actually said. Whenever I see loose language about things that need to be very precise to function safely, my skin crawls. This business is all about precision.

[JASmith]

I understand where your coming from but mono's probably would work better without a compound throat.
They like to be off the lands usually.

Volume 2 of the Grendel Reloading Handbook has a batch of loads for the TTTSX and most of them are seated to a COAL of 2.260" I don't think there were complaints about accuracy, but other members may know more details.

I've read of more people being turned off about the chamber arguments than anything else about the Grendel.

Some are speculating that the whole purpose of this manufactured crisis was to do just that.

As long as the chamber works with Grendel dies and bullets people will be drawn to the Grendel.
It will be exceptionally accurate with a compound throat or a throat designed for monos.
Some are sending their barrels back in and that isn't good.
I like the 65Grendel chamber a lot and will probably get another.
If I do the barrel will be reamed with a Dave Manson reamer.
I have purchased from him before and his work is excellent.

The compound throat is indeed a compromise to get good performance with a variety of bullets.

One thing frequently overlooked in these discussions is the shape of the ogive. The long freebore in the Lapua throat means that long ogive bullets will need to be seated exceptionally far out or see lots of jump.

I have also purchased from Dave Manson and concur that his work is excellent.

[rickOshay]

I was told the name by Steve. Not my invention and I do not have the knowledge to change poop. BUT, Steve did say like the 6.8 SPC, they have a 6.8SPC II for longer heavier bullets as a request from the hunting community. So I think is has been asked for by people for some time. I think it might have been in the works or on the tip of the iceberg ready to be revealed. So now it looks like the choice is available.

If Satern thinks this is the same as 6.8 vs. 6.8II (or .223 vs 5.56 NATO), then I stand corrected. Those chambers differ in free bore in order to reduce chamber pressure for heavier loads. And are NOT about handling longer projectiles.

If Satern believes that his chambers are SAAMI, and more free bore is needed to reduce observed high pressures, then that's a horse of a different color.

I have also heard that the GII will have a free bore similar to the 6.5 x 47 Lapua. Which is interesting given the Lapua was designed for a bolt gun (not limited by the mag length) operating at much higher pressures than the Grendel bolt can handle.

Again, hearing this all second hand is leading to more confusion. Can't wait to hear the explanation that has been promised to be forthcoming on Satern's web site.

[Tedward]

If Satern thinks this is the same as 6.8 vs. 6.8II (or .223 vs 5.56 NATO), then I stand corrected. Those chambers differ in free bore in order to reduce chamber pressure for heavier loads. And are NOT about handling longer projectiles.

If Satern believes that his chambers are SAAMI, and more free bore is needed to reduce observed high pressures, then that's a horse of a different color.

I have also heard that the GII will have a free bore similar to the 6.5 x 47 Lapua. Which is interesting given the Lapua was designed for a bolt gun (not limited by the mag length) operating at much higher pressures than the Grendel bolt can handle.

Again, hearing this all second hand is leading to more confusion. Can't wait to hear the explanation that has been promised to be forthcoming on Satern's web site.

Like I said that is what I was told and have no clue about either 6.8's. So I to have been checking there site for factual information posted by them. Once something is posted and I read it, I'll let people know and vise verse please.

[BjornF16]

I don't think Satern is developing the Grendel II as a result of the issues with the recent batch of Liberty barrels. Given the lead time on reamers, especially a new design, this plan must have been in the works for some time.

I understand it to be in response to the desire to shoot monolithics that weigh > 125 gr and are very long, such as the GMX and LRX. This would be a boon for hunters who perceive the need for these bullets - for elk or moose for example.

However, these animals can be taken with the SAAMI Grendel using projectiles and load data published by commercial manufacturers (e.g Lapua). So I agree that Satern may be trying to answer a question that is not being asked by the vast majority of Grendel enthusiasts.

I thought the Grendel II was going to be the short throat version with "higher velocities"...after all, Liberty barrels have had short throats for a long time (according to XCR).

On a serious note, if this is the official response from Satern, then I won't be getting another Satern made barrel again.

[hidesert cowboy]

I have a 18" stoner barrel I just got. after all the reading about all this I still don't have an answer, so if I try to chamber 123 grain hornady ammo either SST or Amax am I going to have a problem, yes or no. The biggest issue I have is there is no factory ammo for me to buy to even try for myself.

[rickOshay]

I have a 18" stoner barrel I just got. after all the reading about all this I still don't have an answer, so if I try to chamber 123 grain hornady ammo either SST or Amax am I going to have a problem, yes or no. The biggest issue I have is there is no factory ammo for me to buy to even try for myself.

Hey cowboy. Sorry that this is your first post.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a mixed bag with the latest batch of liberty/stoner barrels. Some are reporting no problems what so ever, shooting great. A few listed in this thread have reported issues. You will have to test yourself when you get some factory ammo.

If you reload, measure your chamber - as you should for any new barrel - and report back.

[FlatsFlite]

I have a 18" stoner barrel I just got. after all the reading about all this I still don't have an answer, so if I try to chamber 123 grain hornady ammo either SST or Amax am I going to have a problem, yes or no. The biggest issue I have is there is no factory ammo for me to buy to even try for myself.

PM me your snail mail and I'll send you a dummy round. It was sent to me for the same reason until I found some factory ammo. 100 percent free, just paying it forward as I was helped out.

[customcutter]

I have a 18" stoner barrel I just got. after all the reading about all this I still don't have an answer, so if I try to chamber 123 grain hornady ammo either SST or Amax am I going to have a problem, yes or no. The biggest issue I have is there is no factory ammo for me to buy to even try for myself.

hidesert cowboy,

welcome to the site. I bought one of the 18" barrels in the Liberty barrel buy. I have been able to chamber and extract 123 SST's without releasing the bolt, or any marks on the ogive. That being said, I still haven't fired it to see if I have pressure signs. I need to get or make a gauge to check COL.

[JASmith]

hidesert cowboy,

welcome to the site. I bought one of the 18" barrels in the Liberty barrel buy. I have been able to chamber and extract 123 SST's without releasing the bolt, or any marks on the ogive. That being said, I still haven't fired it to see if I have pressure signs. I need to get or make a gauge to check COL.

First question, were these bullets in factory ammunition? If not what was your cartridge overall length when you did the test?

If you used factory loads or had a length at least as long as the factory load, then you are among the substantial majority of happy campers.

Regarding the reason you posted the question, most of us long standing members of the forum are distressed that confidence in the chambers is being undermined. The current debate is about why about one dozen of the several thousand Grendel shooters report tight or short throats.

Let's explore the specification by SAAMI and how some state the Liberty barrels were cut. If the claim that the reamer(s) are set at the SAAMI dimensions plus or minus .001" then half of the time the chamber will satisfy the SAAMI spec by being inside the specified window of -.000" to pus .002". The other half of the reamers will cut chambers that are somewhat too tight.

Of these that are too tight, the normal tolerance margin built into factory ammunition means that things go more or less OK. After all, that is what these tolerances are all about. Some of the time, however, either the original reamer wears down, is resharpened or is at very tight end of the reamer maker's tolerances, we start to see the symptoms folks describe.

Under normal circumstances, the barrel maker would cheerfully correct the defect or refund the money so as to assure a good reputation.

This time, for whatever reason, third parties chimed in to condemn the standard, claiming that the defective barrels are somehow superior because they "produced higher velocities." These increased velocities are a normal product of the higher pressures one sees when the bullet is jammed into the lands on chambering. Since factory ammunition is tested in a SAAMI-spec chamber with no jamming, then the tight throat pressures are guaranteed to exceed those of factory ammunition. That leads to long term reliability issues and safety concerns for the shooter and bystander.

The barrel maker, for whatever reason, has chosen to make no public comment. Instead, these same third parties claim that the barrel maker will introduce a 'new chamber' that corrects defects attributed to the SAAMI specification.

In the end, should your rifle digest factory standard ammunition without getting rifling marks engraved on the bullet on chambering, count your blessings and enjoy the rifle!

[JASmith]

...I need to get or make a gauge to check COL.

If you plan to make a gauge, does this mean you will turn your own dummy cartridge on a lathe?

If so, it might be interesting to make the case portion conform to the SAAMI max cartridge dimensions and the throat at or a half-thousandth less than the SAAMI minimum throat. The machining will be easier because you won't have to cut a radius on the ogive.

A chamber passing your gauge would indicate that factory ammuntion produced to the SAAMI spec would work, regardless of the ogive of the particular bullet used.

[explorecaves]

If someone has one of these, they could make a dummy round real easy including any bullet shape http://store.makerbot.com/replicator2

[jmhallrn]

Personally, I don't care if there is a new chamber or not. There are dozens of variations of the .308 Winchester chamber, especially when ordering a custom rifle, and it doesn't seem to have hurt anything. As long as my barrel will function properly with SAAMI spec ammo I'll be a happy camper.

As far as Liberty barrels always having had short/tight throats, I think if every Liberty shooter had to mortar their rifle to extract a loaded round it'd be well known.

[XcountryRider]

Loading to 2.264in on the new liberty gave a small scratch at the tip. They loosen up as they break in.

[customcutter]

If you plan to make a gauge, does this mean you will turn your own dummy cartridge on a lathe?

If so, it might be interesting to make the case portion conform to the SAAMI max cartridge dimensions and the throat at or a half-thousandth less than the SAAMI minimum throat. The machining will be easier because you won't have to cut a radius on the ogive.

A chamber passing your gauge would indicate that factory ammuntion produced to the SAAMI spec would work, regardless of the ogive of the particular bullet used.

I was thinking of using a piece of fired brass and a 123 SST to measure. If I wasn't making a set of swage dies for .223 right now, I'd consider trying to turn one on the lathe. I'm not a machinist, just got all the equipment in my garage and trying to learn how to use it. I guess I could take a look at the drawing and turn a straight cylinder .264 and see how far it seats at also, in a spent piece of brass, if I had any. Didn't really want to shoot it until I measure.