Zero Ranges Benefits/Drawbacks Specific for 6.5 Grendel

[JDub]

And don't forget to zero your offset red dot at 50yds. in case the game rushes you!

[Kswhitetails]

I compete in NRA matches with my rifle. Course of fire is 300yds, 500yds and 600yds. 20 rounds for record at each distance.

I have a self imposed max of 300yds with this rifle.

Knowing your equipment is a major comfort.

SY

Sy - Why the 300 limit? Are you really that bad at 500?

[Arkhangel5]

Haha KsW,
No, I set that limit because at that distance the 123sst still has over 1k ft lbs of energy.

Beyond that my trajectory is like a rainbow, a shot past that I would require solid distances to the animal so I can dial for the best placement.

I have no issues with the accuracy of my rifle or this cartridge, in windy conditions it is hard for a match 223 to out X me at 600yds in club matches.

Did I mention I love this little cartridge?

SY

Hehe rereading my original post, I see where you had reason to question. My tablet must have deleted a whole line.

[Kswhitetails]

I'm really glad you picked up on my humor, it can be overly dry at times.

A reasonable and practical limit, sir. I'm no competitor, but I have visions of days past when the biggest whitetail I've ever seen (public hunting, btw) walked out of the grass at just over 400 yards from me, looked at me, and grunted. And stood there, looking at me, as if saying, "go ahead, try." And since of course I had nothing to get there, (it was bow season, and he knew it, the MMHMM...) I went immediately looking for a good cartridge to build an AR upper in (because the upper costs less than the whole rifle ) to defeat the ranges and wind in Kansas.

The guy at the GS sent me to research 6.8. I googled 6.8 Rem SPC. I found AR15.com, and eventually some posts by LRRPF, which led me here, back I think in 2015. I lingered with research, and much trepidation until I read one too many childishly insolent retorts to LRRPF's well reasoned, well supported comments. Right then I decided "well, if that's how the 6.8 guys are gonna play, I don't want to even be in their sandbox." And here I am, like you, in love with "this little cartridge." And now, the proud owner of my own Larue, too. This has been a truly great journey so far, and perhaps this season or next, that old hog will cross my path again, and I can tell you if he does, he's mine. Ill shoot, and stalk him to death!

BTW, my Larue now has a Bushnell 6500T 4.5-30x50, and is paired with a Bushnell Legend 1200 LRF. If I see him or his offspring, my gear is now at a level in which I have the confidence to try. But if we count ourselves as real men, leaving real examples for the young hunters we bring along with us - ethical hunting prevails, and I respect your 300 yard limit even more.

[Double Naught Spy]

One needs to make several trips to the range over a period of weeks.

Ideally, two or three of the first sessions should be calm days. After that, one should leave the sight settings alonr to grt sn idea of how much his bullet wanders with conditions.

I am glad somebody said this. I often get a zero and come back later and refine it.

[doofus65]

When I'm dialing in my 260Rem with 120 gr ttsx or 30-06 with 165 gr tsx bullets, I generally zero at 200. Then I know I"m good out to 250 without thinking and I should aim a few inches low if 100 or closer.

Where I hunt is mostly dark timber, except when chasing antelope which is still often only a 200 yard shot so 200 zero takes care of 99% of my hunting requirements.


I've not yet worked up a hunting load for my 6.5 G, so I might do that differently, depending on results, but since my known hunting ranges won't change, I'm guessing I'll use the same technique until proven not K.I.S.S.

[Sticks]

I would add to that, I have yet to see anyone eyeball a distance to an animal or object and be within 30 yards. Unless you have a rangefinder, that extra 19 yards makes a difference with the adrenaline.

[JASmith]

I spent a lot of time looking at the "Maximum Point Blank Range" idea.

In the end, I concluded that it makes sense if the ONLY shooting one does is at medium game or paper.

Th high trajectory -- 5 to 6 inches above the line of of sight for intermediate ranges -- adds a lot of detail to be remembered when practicing, plinking or casual shooting at those distances. The 1.5" high zero at 100 yards means that I can hold centre of mass for most varmints or casual targets to a tad past yards. Raising the crosshairs then works out to about 300 yards.

Going further than 300 yards moves one into choosing one of the various options for getting the right point of impact.

[DJL2]

Am I the only guy that uses meters? Makes a lot of sense for a scope set in mils generally, keeping it metric. ;-) Seriously, though...

50/200m zeros are the lazy man's answer to PBR zeroing. Anyone that has spent time w/ 5.56 has undoubtedly come across the 50/200m recommendation. I use it myself on my iron sighted or RDS 5.56 ARs. It's easy and, in my opinion, a better option that the 25/300m standard many of us were taught.

As regards actual PBR-zeroing - it IS a useful tool. I first encountered the concept years ago on Chuckhawks. My biggest issue with PBR is that people accept, for my taste, far too large a "vital zone." Way back when I first read about it, Chuckhawks used a +/- 3 inches (or a 6" vital zone) - often, if I use software like JBM, I do the same if considering ethical game harvesting. That's a level of error I am willing to tolerate under the assumption that I am going to hold my POA on my desired POI - which is the whole point of the PBR zero anyhow.

It's only my opinion - but, if you have the skill and the DOPE to consistently hold over/under, then a PBR zero isn't really for you. It's utility is lost at that point.

[JASmith]

...It's only my opinion - but, if you have the skill and the DOPE to consistently hold over/under, then a PBR zero isn't really for you. It's utility is lost at that point.

Very well said!

A large majority of our forum are either actively practicing those skills or are developing them. On the other hand, there are some very good to excellent shooters who know they will avoid shots at medium game at ranges beyond about 300 yards (meters too).

The vast majority of us should put ourselves in this class. Wind doping is a real challenge and even 5 mph winds can take one out of the vital zone at 300 yards with some bullets. Going out to 500 yards ups the odds of a miss for all but the best dopers.

Hence, the PBR method -- independent of one's choice of zero -- should be the starting point for everyone.

If one wants to progress beyond the 250 - 300 yard/meter range for medium game, one must shoot enough to become familiar with wind doping and note carefully the circumstances where the shot drifts outside the 6 - 10" diameter circle we view as the vital zone size. Only when one develops the experience to routinely place the shot into the right spot should he or she consider a shot 'way out there'...

[LR1955]

Guys:

How many of you have put a BPZ elevation on your rifle and actually shot groups on paper from about 25 yards to the max distance of your theoretical PBZ just to see what your trajectory and group size really looks like? It will be an eye opener because it won't be what you envisioned via your ballistics computer. It will show you what reality is which ought to give you a lot more confidence in using such zero's.

Also, how many of you have recorded your zero about twenty or thirty times to see how much it may change from session to session? If you regularly shoot at a specific distance, record your zeros and after about twenty shooting iterations using the same load, shot at the same distance, you will find that for reasons unknown, you end up adjusting zero periodically and up to a minute on average. I know one minute isn't much but it is when you deal with using battle sight or point blank zeros. Again, it will present you with another reality that you can use to your benefit via increased confidence in using PBZ's.

LR55

[Sticks]

Guys:

...Also, how many of you have recorded your zero about twenty or thirty times to see how much it may change from session to session? If you regularly shoot at a specific distance, record your zeros and after about twenty shooting iterations using the same load, shot at the same distance, you will find that for reasons unknown, you end up adjusting zero periodically and up to a minute on average. I know one minute isn't much but it is when you deal with using battle sight or point blank zeros. Again, it will present you with another reality that you can use to your benefit via increased confidence in using PBZ's.

LR55

Elevation and windage changes for me from session to session.

[Kilco]

Off-topic sort of.. but I have a 260 Rem R700 build for me by Clerance Hammond that is the only rifle I've owned that absolutely retains its perfect zero.. Even with multiple loads, projectiles, and temperatures the 100byard zero remains bulls-eye.

I've had many different companies do many different rifles, but Clerance is the man. Older Grentleman from Red Lion Penn, and his techniques are old school. I believe he was a rather well known bench rest shooter in his day..

If anyone is looking for a custom bolt gun, I simply cannot recommend him enough.. the tolerances and "trueing" he puts into his rifles is stunning.

[DJL2]

I'm a new Grendel shooter, but I've built limited data from 25-200m. My observations are thus.

I used a 25m target to get rounds on paper, and centered, before moving to 100m.
@100m, I was about somewhere between .7-1 mrad low (hard to remember, because I had no intent to keep the 25m zero, just adjusted).
@200m, I confirmed that I needed .7 mrad (123 gn ELD-M @ ~2470 fps) of adjustment.
On the flip side, using my 200m zero, I'm only about ~2 inches high @ 100m/150m...
Honestly, under field conditions, that's inside my margin for error as a shooter from anything other than prone supported. As mentioned here, my optic has a zero stop and I am toying with whether to leave that @ 100m or move it to 200m.

Now, all that being said, my greatest experience attempting to shoot multiple distances with one zero is actually using my issue rifle/carbine. I have a healthy appreciation of free-float handguards from the same. Part of the problem is that a 25m zero is poor practice in general, because it can mask errors if you're not shooting dime sized groups. However, if we look at the theoretical PBR 25/300m PBR zero, we note that your best case is being about 5 inches high at your 150 and 200m targets. I admit to not being the best shooter, but I found this not to be an effective PBR zero/trajectory. Just shooting at Ivans w/ either RDS or irons, I needed to make a conscious effort to aim at the base of the target to maximize my hit potential. That's not an ideal hold, either, but I needed/wanted a clear POA reference and "estimate five inches low on this relatively featureless, monochromatic mass" wasn't it.

A 50/200m zero ended up providing me a far more useable trajectory, with far less input required on my part as a shooter. Part of that is because the projectiles is within +/- 3 inches of POA all the way to 250 meters and is no lower (about -5 inches) @ 300m, than a 25/300m zero is high at 150-225m. Accounting for 5 inches of drop between 250-300m is a lot easier for me than accounting for +5 inches in my short-mid range shooting.

These are big targets. An Ivan is, arguably, a much easier target to hit than a deer (for example). I found the +/- 5 inch trajectory tolerance to be far too generous for even this type of shooting, based on my level of skill. It required me to make hold under corrections on the most common targets I was engaging to score hits reliably. I wanted to be able to hold POA centered on my target and make hits - which is what a PBR zero is supposed to support. Moving to a +/- 3 inch 50/200m zero supported that for me. The 300m targets being the least common, it was much less hassle to just hold at the neck/shoulder for that one presentation.

Sorry for the TL/DR...that's how I arrived to my own conclusion on the utility of the PBR zero and what sort of trajectory I'm willing to accept in a PBR zero.

Guys:

How many of you have put a BPZ elevation on your rifle and actually shot groups on paper from about 25 yards to the max distance of your theoretical PBZ just to see what your trajectory and group size really looks like?

Also, how many of you have recorded your zero about twenty or thirty times to see how much it may change from session to session?

LR55

[LR1955]

Off-topic sort of.. but I have a 260 Rem R700 build for me by Clerance Hammond that is the only rifle I've owned that absolutely retains its perfect zero.. Even with multiple loads, projectiles, and temperatures the 100byard zero remains bulls-eye.

I've had many different companies do many different rifles, but Clerance is the man. Older Grentleman from Red Lion Penn, and his techniques are old school. I believe he was a rather well known bench rest shooter in his day..

If anyone is looking for a custom bolt gun, I simply cannot recommend him enough.. the tolerances and "trueing" he puts into his rifles is stunning.

Kilco:

So you are saying that every single time you went to the range with that rifle and shot at 100 yards, it grouped exactly where it grouped the previous X number of times? Not that it held a bulls eye every time. But that it shot to the same zero every time and you have never had to touch the sights.

LR55