Ballistics charts

[wiersy111]

Where can I find current ballistic tables that show velocity and energy out to 1,000 yards for the Grendel ans 6.8 SPCII? I have a 6.8 SPCII shooter bashing the Grendel.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Or, you could just ignore him and have a nice New Years!

[NugginFutz]

Or, you could just ignore him and have a nice New Years!

+1

[NightForce]

Where can I find current ballistic tables that show velocity and energy out to 1,000 yards for the Grendel ans 6.8 SPCII? I have a 6.8 SPCII shooter bashing the Grendel.

What bullet weights and muzzle velocities are you talking about?

Follow this link to an online source that will graph it for you...


Ballistics

[wilecoyote]

Or, you could just ignore him and have a nice New Years!

Agree with that, people who bash something that someone else has that is different from theirs is usually due to them trying to feel better about what they have (even though they may never actually achieve that).

[frittsk]

NightForce,

Awesome link! Thanks!

[wiersy111]

Great link Nightforce, I have been playing with that for a couple of hours.

You're right guys I agreed to disagree. However the same individual saw another post which I had posted pics of my 100 yard zero and my load tests and he was very interested in my shot groups.

[LRRPF52]

Some Background
There has been a lot of work on the 6.8 side to make it like a Grendel, after watching them both for about 11 years now. I was raised on the .270 Winchester, and I'm a huge fan of the AR15. When I heard that a senior team guy in 5th Group was working on a .277 AR15 with a slightly larger case, my interest was highly peaked.

Another guy I worked with got one of the first AA Grendel's around the same time, and he was an instructor at SF's Sniper and CQB Courses at Bragg, huge gun guy, and has a lot of accurate rifles. He said the Grendel was his most accurate rifle, which made me double-take, because I knew what kind of bolt guns he had, and the multiple lifetimes of triggertime he had behind accurate rifles at SOTIC and in Counter-Terrorist/Hostage Rescue units.

Patience
So I sat back and watched the development of both cartridges. I also came to the awareness 6.5mm would be the way to go in the AR10 because of BC advantage over all the others with less recoil. I decided on an 18" Grendel and a 22" .260 Remington, but couldn't buy an 18" barrel for the few milliseconds they were up on Midway, so I went with the next available thing with the 16" AA Barrel/Bolt combo in 2009.

I'm glad I ended up with the 16" because it allowed me to see right off the bat that all the statements that were being made about 6.5 Grendel needing 24" barrels to keep up with the 6.8 were simply inaccurate.

Marketing
Some of the 6.8 folks did an excellent job of framing and controlling the argument by staying ahead of the curve online by being on the offensive, and telling prospective buyers that "If all you want to do is punch paper with a 24" target gun, then the Grendel is for you. If you want to hunt with a 16" carbine, the 6.8 blows the Grendel away, with more bullet options, faster mv, more efficiency, and more impact energy on the animals."

A lot of people were won over with this set of statements, even though every single one of them is incorrect. Even I was surprised to learn that the Grendel was intended from the start to be a great white tail cartridge in the AR15. At this point, I had seen the 6.8 Bullets Picture posted regularly, so I believed that there were more bullets for the 6.8 as well because of effective marketing. By 2011, it looked like this:



As my load development progressed, I realized that I was getting as fast or faster speeds as the 16" 6.8 folks' handloads, and I was staying at maximum loads listed by AA. I first realized this with the 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, the 120gr SMK, and 123gr Scenar using TAC & 8208XBR. I also chronographed factory loads with the 123gr Scenar that were way faster than I thought they would be, with 7fps Extreme Spread and .79" Groups at 100yds with one of the Precision Firearms Loads.

As soon as I started noticing this, I then ran the ballistics comparisons between hotter 6.8x43 chamber variants (non-SAAMI) and a 16" Grendel at or under book max, since we didn't have SAAMI approval then. No matter how much I tried to help the 16" 6.8, and handicap the 16" Grendel, the Grendel always did better, and even with lower mv's, would surpass the 6.8 by 100-175yds because of BC's.

I would submit the charts and comparisons side by side, then get accused of "rigging" data. I use the same makes & weight ranges as I could find. For example, 95gr 6.8 TTSX vs. 6.5 100gr TTSX, 115gr HPBT vs. 120gr HPBT, 6.8 100gr Nosler AB vs. 6.5 100gr NBT, 110gr TSX vs. 110 Barnes Banded Solid.

The only time I have seen ballistic chart responses to refute what I posted, the Grendel's trajectory line was made so faint, you had to tweak your monitor to see it, because it was flatter than the other examples, with more retained energy, an that was with the 6.8 using an 18" barrel. One of the main claims is that there aren't any good hunting pills for the Grendel, so I started researching available hunting pills. This was no overnight task, and still isn't complete, years later. What I saw from a simple search initially was that there were way more hunting pills for the 6.5mm, even at 85gr-130gr weight ranges, and they work superbly from even 10.5" Grendel's.



Post those results, and the retort was that "....none of those bullets open up at weak Grendel velocities. There are only 3 you can use that work barely well. The 6.8 is better. Go back to your paper targets." It really doesn't matter how much truth you share with someone if they are emotionally committed to their investment. There is no point in trying to "win" them over, because ego and irrational thought have taken over.

Over the years, I have never resorted to personal attacks, and have tried to be as polite and unemotional as possible. Most of the guys that lashed out when faced with data contradictory to their mistaken claims were banned from several forums, and I don't see them anymore in the debate. I have ended up making friends with many of the 6.8 folks because I don't get emotional, or attack people who are genuinely happy with improved performance in the AR15.

I've been asking why the .277" 140gr Berger Match Grade Hunting VLD was used in SSA's load, instead of the 130gr Classic Hunter (the 130gr CH has a .497 BC with less case intrusion; the 140gr VLD has .487 in the .277" line), and some of the main experimenters with 6.8 are now working with the 130gr Classic Hunter, loaded in mags that will allow a longer COL, with more medium-burning powders like we would use in the Grendel. It's still a premium bullet that costs almost twice as the more common target and hunting bullets, but for external ballistics, it's comparable to the 123gr and 129gr 6.5mm. I still prefer the SST over a Berger, because of the cannelure Interlock and polymer tip.

At the end of the day, I'm happy to see the AR15 being used more and more as a common hunting system, especially in lightweight form with carbine barrels. I think we all win in that respect, because we are no longer beholden to 1800's designs, and the Grendel and 6.8 have helped push that reality forward together. Competition has made them better and more available to the customer. I would like to see the competition remain active, yet friendly.

[NugginFutz]

Great link Nightforce, I have been playing with that for a couple of hours.

You're right guys I agreed to disagree. However the same individual saw another post which I had posted pics of my 100 yard zero and my load tests and he was very interested in my shot groups.

Well, now you've got him, don't you?

[XcountryRider]

Just inform him that when shooting the same kind of bullet with similar grains the Grendel surpasses the 6.8SPC in velocity before the 100 yard line.

[wiersy111]

It's just to bad that Minnesota and Texas are so far apart as I would enjoy a day of shooting and hog hunting. Then I guess the proof would be in the shooting.

[rickOshay]

"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"
Jonathan Swift.

Save your breath.

[sneaky one]

Lets make a something happen..

[NightForce]

For a while now I've been debating the purchase of QuickLoad Software............the debate is now over...I ordered it this morning...