Headspace issue or paranoia?

[Michael]

Here is one that has me a bit confused. I have been reloading for the last few months, had no issues with any of the rounds I loaded. When I initially started reloading, I resized my cases according to the Reading directions (die in contact w/ram) and dropped them in the Grendel, easing the bolt forward to ensure there were not fit issues. There were none, and of the hundred or so rounds I have fired, I have had no stuck rounds or separation.

Fast forward to today. I ordered and received a L.E. Wilson Case Gage. Following the directions (see at http://lewilson.com/images/CASE_GAGE.pdf

[Brag]

To be more precise, I use a headspace gauge by Hornady

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/231904/hornady-lock-n-load-bullet-comparator-basic-set-with-6-inserts

Measure a fired case from your rifle, then push it back 3 thou for match type ammo, and maybe 4 thou for hunting(that's what I do anyways).

If you go this route, can you please give us a measurement difference from a fired case, and one of your resized cases currently, I'll guess a 7-9 thou difference.

Currently you don't know where the headspace needs to be on your WE Wilson gauge. With differences in bolts, chamber cutting, and other tolerance stacking nothing can really show you where to size without a comparator. You can skip this tool, but you Brass might last longer is it's not over-sized.

We all love collecting tools anyways, right?

[LR1955]

Here is one that has me a bit confused. I have been reloading for the last few months, had no issues with any of the rounds I loaded. When I initially started reloading, I resized my cases according to the Reading directions (die in contact w/ram) and dropped them in the Grendel, easing the bolt forward to ensure there were not fit issues. There were none, and of the hundred or so rounds I have fired, I have had no stuck rounds or separation.

Fast forward to today. I ordered and received a L.E. Wilson Case Gage. Following the directions (see at http://lewilson.com/images/CASE_GAGE.pdf ) I dropped a once fired case in the gage and it was over a bit. Taking a new Lapua piece of brass, I dropped it in the case and it was a bit under. I resized the Lapua as I had all the other brass I had fired, and it was still under. Tried to adjust my die to get it to within specs of the gage and directions, no joy, rounds were still under. My dies are the standard dies – not the S bushing type.

Should I even worry about this? Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks

M:

Yes, you are doing something wrong. You are focusing your attention on a gadget that is of no value instead of realtiy that has value. If your brass chambers and extracts easily, you have sized it down enough. So, you did the right thing first off which is more than about half the guys who start loading for the Grendel. You bumped the shoulder and checked by using your rifle, not a headspace guage. We have had guys here size the brass, see that it fits in a headspace guage, load a hundred rounds, and find out it wasn't bumped enough for their specific rifle.

Save your money. There is absolutely no need for you to spend it on a headspace guage and less for a gas gun.

LR1955

[jeff1383]

I put 100% trust in my Wilson gauge when reloading. If it fits correctly in the gauge it ALWAYS chambers and fires in my rifle. No need to break out my rifle and bring it to the bench when I have a tool to do it. If your bumping the shoulders enough and they fit in the gauge correctly and won't chamber then whoever chambered your barrel f'd up or your gauge is a turd.

[Michael]

Brag - fired case is about .025 longer than resized case. Kinda hard to tell, as the resized case is just a hair inside the gauge. Not buying another gauge.

LR1955 - thanks for the vote of confidence. Probably going to go w/ your advice, but it is still troubling.

Jeff - I am leaning towards the gauge and not the chamber. It is an AA Barrel, and I have had zero issues with it re accuracy or cycle of operations in the last nine months.

If anyone else out there has comments or advice, I would love to hear.

[Dogue]

Just for clarification, the part that's sticking out of the case gauge too far is the case head side and not the mouth, correct? If the case fits into the gauge and the head is flush with the gauge then you're OK. I do know that my chamber is slightly more generous than the Wilson gauge.

Your last post made me think you might be referring to the case mouth protruding past the gauge which only indicates that your brass might be getting a little long.

[Michael]

Dogue - no, it is the base of the case. Also measured the gage from Wilson. Between Go and No go is .015"

[LR1955]

Brag - fired case is about .025 longer than resized case. Kinda hard to tell, as the resized case is just a hair inside the gauge. Not buying another gauge.

LR1955 - thanks for the vote of confidence. Probably going to go w/ your advice, but it is still troubling.

Jeff - I am leaning towards the gauge and not the chamber. It is an AA Barrel, and I have had zero issues with it re accuracy or cycle of operations in the last nine months.

If anyone else out there has comments or advice, I would love to hear.

Mike:

Is it the guage or the chamber? These Grendel guages seem to be highly problematic and also unnecessary. How did we survive before they came out? We did what you did and never thought about a case guage.

Some folks may think that a guy can set the shoulder back too far on a Grendel and thus cause excessive case headspace resulting in headspace separation. Over the years on this forum, the biggest problem guys seem to have is bumping the shoulder back far enough as their shell holder and sizing die just won't give that much. I have had to have shell holders ground down slightly in order to bump the shoulders enough. So, due to the dimensions of the sizing die and shell holder, I doubt a fellow can bump them back excessively.

Ad for the Lapua / AA brass. Right now I am shooting some brass I have fired through four different chambers. Two were factory Grendel chambers cut to AA specs. Two were chambers cut with a Tiff reamer. Two chambers used a 7.62 X 39 bolt and two a 'Grendel' cut bolt. I have sized this brass on two different sizing dies, one a JD Jones custom die and the other a Redding S Bushing Die. I have never had a headspace separation and never cracked a neck. The headstamps are beaten up so badly I can't tell the difference between 'Alexander Arms' and 'Lapua'. The primers are beginning to seat not as tightly as before. I have no clue how many times I have loaded this brass.

I have never annealed it, never neck turned it. I do ream the inside of the neck before its first loading and this stuff I believe I actually trimmed one time over the last five or six years and polished it once or twice. It was the first lot of Lapua brass that AA got in after years of us having to fireform 7.62 X 39 brass because Alexander couldn't get the Lapua brass. 2005 or 2006?

That should give you an idea that this stuff is pretty tough and can take some pretty big changes without worry.

LR1955

[rg1]

My new Lapua brass is undersized also. Mine is about .007-.008" short in the shoulder. Full length sizing the new Lapua brass did not correct. Only fire-forming will the shoulder lengthen. My Hornady factory rounds are about .007" longer than the new Lapua brass in the shoulder. My fired Lapua and Hornady brass measures about 3.219-3.220" in my rifle using Hornady's Headspace Gauge with the .350" insert meaning that the Lapua case shoulders have to move forward quite a bit. Didn't see any case stretching issues. Wonder if the the angle of the shoulder is different on the Lapua? My Redding standard 2-die set correctly sizes my brass for my chamber but it would not ever resize Lapua brass back to the short factory headspace lengths. Factory Hornady loaded ammo measures approx. 3.218" with my Hornady gauge. So far I prefer the Hornady 1-fired brass even though I know Lapua makes good products?

[Michael]

LR1955 – I’m thinking it is the gauge and not the chamber. As near as I can figure, I would need to grind down a shell holder as well to meet the Wilson gauge specs, and I just don't see the need based on what you are saying/performance of the ammo I have fired. All the brass I have reloaded has been Hornady or PPU 1x or 2x fired, and like you I have had no issues with chambering or signs of stress. I have been saving the Lapua until I have my loads developed and my processed refined. I figure if I am not having issues with the cheaper brass, I should have no issues with the Lapua.

I have had headspace separation on my M4 AR from some imported mil surplus ammo, of course I have a broken shell extractor for my .223/5.56 ARs(haven't been able to find one for the Grendel - will 7.62x39 work I wonder?).

Think I will use that gauge for a paperweight.

[LR1955]

My new Lapua brass is undersized also. Mine is about .007-.008" short in the shoulder. Full length sizing the new Lapua brass did not correct. Only fire-forming will the shoulder lengthen. My Hornady factory rounds are about .007" longer than the new Lapua brass in the shoulder. My fired Lapua and Hornady brass measures about 3.219-3.220" in my rifle using Hornady's Headspace Gauge with the .350" insert meaning that the Lapua case shoulders have to move forward quite a bit. Didn't see any case stretching issues. Wonder if the the angle of the shoulder is different on the Lapua? My Redding standard 2-die set correctly sizes my brass for my chamber but it would not ever resize Lapua brass back to the short factory headspace lengths. Factory Hornady loaded ammo measures approx. 3.218" with my Hornady gauge. So far I prefer the Hornady 1-fired brass even though I know Lapua makes good products?

RG1;

Fire form factory Lapua brass?

Load it exactly as you would fired brass and shoot it.

Most factory brass is undersized so it isn't anything uncommon or anything that needs special attention.

If your brass can easily chamber and extract, you sized it down enough.

LR1955

[LR1955]

LR1955 – I’m thinking it is the gauge and not the chamber. As near as I can figure, I would need to grind down a shell holder as well to meet the Wilson gauge specs, and I just don't see the need based on what you are saying/performance of the ammo I have fired. All the brass I have reloaded has been Hornady or PPU 1x or 2x fired, and like you I have had no issues with chambering or signs of stress. I have been saving the Lapua until I have my loads developed and my processed refined. I figure if I am not having issues with the cheaper brass, I should have no issues with the Lapua.

I have had headspace separation on my M4 AR from some imported mil surplus ammo, of course I have a broken shell extractor for my .223/5.56 ARs(haven't been able to find one for the Grendel - will 7.62x39 work I wonder?).

Think I will use that gauge for a paperweight.

Mike:

I doubt a 7.62 case extractor will work with a 6.5 but you can try it if you ever separate a head on Grendel brass. I can't recall if anyone on the two forums has ever had a headspace separation with a Grendel.

LR1955