123gr eldm water expansion at 410 yards

[lazyengineer]

@lazy...

https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?20588-SST-vs-Gunner-expansion-test-(not-scientific)

In this one I compared Gunner and SST. My experience with the gunner match at that distance wasn't good..

I can't help but wonder if the tip of the ELDM is what helps that match bullet expand at the low end vs the Gunner.

Thanks! Here's your SST pic from that older post



and here's your recent ELDM post:


Looks comparable(ish) in terms of bullet expansion/deformation on impact but still enough to penetrate and so stuff; but with the SST doing a little better at being controlled and the classic mushroom. From this, I'd chose the SST.

[kiwi shooter]

[LRRPF52]

Same with hunting outfitters in the Mountain West US with the A-MAX and ELD-Ms vs SSTs and ELD-Xs, though the ELD-X is relatively new.

When Hornady first started making ammo for 6.5 Grendel, the 120gr A-MAX and 123gr A-MAX were the first factory loads.

120gr A-MAX was quickly discontinued due to the more tangent ogive jamming the lands.

People started using 123gr A-MAX for hunting and killing everything with it quite boringly.

The other factory hunting loads available at the time were the 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip from AA, 129gr SST from AA, 130gr Swift Scirocco from AA, 90gr TNT from AA, and 123gr Soft Point from PPU imported under the Wolf brand, which had all kinds of problems.

[imaguy3]

Thanks! Here's your SST pic from that older post

[

and here's your recent ELDM post:


Looks comparable(ish) in terms of bullet expansion/deformation on impact but still enough to penetrate and so stuff; but with the SST doing a little better at being controlled and the classic mushroom.

Maybe, some other factors to consider.

The SST went through less water and into a sand bag, the ELDM went through way more water because I did not have a sand bag backer. It's possible that the SST would have lost it's jacket had it had the extra water to go through.

Additionally... compare the retained weight of the eldm with jacket... it was heavier than the retained weight of the SST with jacket.

With regards to the mushroom... they are within 0.05"... to me that's a moot point.



And as always... sample size of one... But I don't think either bullet would "fail" if put in the vitals.

[Turpentine]

[JASmith]

[lazyengineer]

Could you go into more detail on this please?

[Stinky Coyote]

I pulled 99.8 grains from brisket of a whitetail buck after 18" of penetration starting with busting through the 2nd last rib and 2100 fps impact velocity, 3 chunks all together though. Seems the weight of the lead will often try to go just a bit further than the jacket at the very tail end of the travel, I have found this on quite a few critters from close high velocity impact to moderate 200-ish yard impacts. Think jacket as it grabs the final bit of flesh and comes to a halt the lead momentum is just enough to pull free of the jacket on that final halt. You won't find the jacket at one end and the lead at the other...they are all together at the end of the travel.

I shot a whitetail at 420 yards and 1800 fps impact quartering that exited after 15" travel and top of heart area destroyed.

There's a guy here who shot a 12" barrel at 300 yards whitetail buck and recovered the eld-m offside hide with 1700 fps impact and beautiful mushroom looking to be at least 95% retention.

we are 14 head of big game plus a wolf now over 5 seasons with only using the eld-m, 10-420 yards, 163 yard average shot distance, 13 yard average recovery distance, moose, bighorn sheep, mule deer, whitetails, and a few black bears, will not change bullet unless the law mandates it

[Turpentine]

I pulled 99.8 grains from brisket of a whitetail buck after 18" of penetration starting with busting through the 2nd last rib and 2100 fps impact velocity, 3 chunks all together though. Seems the weight of the lead will often try to go just a bit further than the jacket at the very tail end of the travel, I have found this on quite a few critters from close high velocity impact to moderate 200-ish yard impacts. Think jacket as it grabs the final bit of flesh and comes to a halt the lead momentum is just enough to pull free of the jacket on that final halt. You won't find the jacket at one end and the lead at the other...they are all together at the end of the travel.


I shot a whitetail at 420 yards and 1800 fps impact quartering that exited after 15" travel and top of heart area destroyed.

There's a guy here who shot a 12" barrel at 300 yards whitetail buck and recovered the eld-m offside hide with 1700 fps impact and beautiful mushroom looking to be at least 95% retention.

we are 14 head of big game plus a wolf now over 5 seasons with only using the eld-m, 10-420 yards, 163 yard average shot distance, 13 yard average recovery distance, moose, bighorn sheep, mule deer, whitetails, and a few black bears, will not change bullet unless the law mandates it

[Stinky Coyote]

that's outstanding information, people sure seem to hesitate on this 21st century 30 gr cartridge but the numbers do not lie, and I mean these numbers....25 sd and .5 bc with rapid controlled expansion characteristics driven by 29.6 grains of powder at moderate velocities numbers...you could see it on paper what was possible and the field reports show exactly that and maybe even better than what the paper suggested...a very effective and efficient formula

[JASmith]

Could you go into more detail on this please?

Ballistic gel is about 6% more dense than water and has significant viscosity. These two features suggest that the pressure on the nose of a bullet should be higher for a given velocity in gel than in water. So, we can ask why does it seem that bullets get torn apart more severely in water than in gel?

The answer is rooted in the viscosity of gel and strength in things like wood and bone. The expanding bullet and dynamic cavity wall are intimately linked. Materials with strength and/or viscosity will have smaller cavities for similar density materials with little or no viscosity or strength. That means that the bullet does not expand as much in gel as it does in water.

Conversely, the lower density and strength of water means that a slightly higher velocity is needed for expansion to start.

Bottom line, the minimum expansion velocity in water tells us that the same bullet at the same velocity is highly likely to expand in gel and flesh. BUT, it will expand more in water.