Temperature stability of CFE223

[Cal]

Hey Folks,
I've done a lot of reading here and else where (Harpoon1, thanks for the article link)
So I'm finally able/ready to start working up loads for my Gren. What I'm wondering is what kind of difference everyone is seeing with CFE223 vs ambient temperature vs charge weight?

Details:
Rifle type: AR15
Barrel:Heavy Contour 20". Believe it to be a BCA. Marked as 1:8 twist rate (not verified...yet). Have verified COAL to lands = 2.280. Verified with resized dummy round, not able to close bolt by hand with 123 SST loaded to 2.290, can close bolt by hand with 2.280. Required hand pressure same as factory loaded 123 HPBT American Gunner which does function very well. Brass ejects to about the 4:00 o'clock position.
Load Data:
Brass: 1X fired Hornady, 123grn HPBT American Gunner in same rifle. No pressure sings.
Dies : Lee Precision Delux. Brass FL resized per directions in die set. Lite crimp applied with Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Noted observations: The Lee FL sizing/decapping die seems to bring the neck inside diameter to about .260" measured with calipers. When I measure a piece of resized .223 brass, resized with my Lee .223 FL resizing die I get about .220".
Started with CCI #450 primers, 29.0grns CFE223 loaded to 2.260" COAL with Hornady 123SST, increased by 0.3gr increments to 30.8gr. Stopped at 30.8gr due to case fill, I didn't feel any crunching but I don't feel any powder movement when shaking case either. Force needed for bullet seating didn't seem to change. COAL for max load is same as previous loads.

Temperature when loaded, about 40 degrees F.

Loaded 5 rds per charge weight

So what think you my Brothers and Sisters of the Horde?

[biodsl]

My 123 Amax load is 31.2grs of CFE at 2.250. As you know, CFE is a bit temperature sensitive. Here are average velocities take on different days out of a 22" barrel at various temps. Measured at the muzzle. As you can see it's all over the map but the trend is upward really spikes over 80 degrees. I'm not confident in those 90 degree numbers. I really need to re-shoot that sometime.

2497 40 degrees
2504 40
2506 45
2540 56
2544 50
2548 53
2561 68
2561 60
2580 75
2583 75
2608 80
2661 90
2674 90

[VASCAR2]

[Cal]

Thanks for the info Biodsl and Vascar2

Maybe I should load up 1 more charge @ 31.1grs. I guess a big part of my question hinges on avg ambient temp at loading vs avg ambient temp at use and what may change.

Or am I headed down a deep dark rabbit hole that just eats up lots of resources for little to no gain?

[Happy2Shoot]

My 123 Amax load is 31.2grs of CFE at 2.250. As you know, CFE is a bit temperature sensitive. Here are average velocities take on different days out of a 22" barrel at various temps. Measured at the muzzle. As you can see it's all over the map but the trend is upward really spikes over 80 degrees. I'm not confident in those 90 degree numbers. I really need to re-shoot that sometime.

2497 40 degrees
2504 40
2506 45
2540 56
2544 50
2548 53
2561 68
2561 60
2580 75
2583 75
2608 80
2661 90
2674 90

Capture.JPG

[tdbru]

Good job H2S.
Not surprising that CFE223 has a 3.2 fps/F. Most ball powders are more temperature sensitive than extruded powders. possibly Winchester Staball 6.5 to be the exception, but it's burn rate is too slow for the 6.5 Grendel for optimum usage.

another powder that works well with 120 to 130gr. bullet in the 6.5 Grendel is Hodgdon H4895. Made by Australian Defense Industries (ADI). It is one of Hodgdon's "extreme" powders. No de-copper agent but the tempco is 0.2 fps/F. so over 10x better on the temp coefficient issue. It also burn quite uniformly and when the right load is reached SDs can also be low with it. And it ignites much easier than ball powders do, similar to most stick powders. It's pretty fine grained as stick powders go so thrown charges don't vary too much. of course if your going for max precision one tends to weigh each charge anyway, regardless of powder type.

you might give H4895 a consideration if low temp co's are important to you. Otherwise CFE223 has that de-coppering agent in it, which is nice, and one gets good velocity and loading density in the 6.5 Grendel with it as well. So other than temp coefficient CFE223 has a lot to offer with the heavier bullets in the 6.5 Grendel in my opinion.
regards,
-tdbru

[Cal]

Thank you folks for the info. I'll be back here when I get these launched to add my results to the data.
Guess I'll need to look at getting some H4895.
Long story short, I do have some Accurate LT-32 coming also.

[BowChamp]

Looking forward to your results.

[Cal]

Unfortunately, looks like it's gonna be a couple of weeks before get to try these pills.

[myrifle]

I gave up on cfe223 some time in 2021 maybe even closer too 2020 time frame.

Good powder never acted spikey but the huge velocity loss from normal temps too coldfront temps while hunting was just to much for my taste. Plus every load I worked up for it went to crap when the temps dropped.

Most loads I used it in I moved over too arcomp. The bolt grendel loads I used cfe223 in got h4895 or varget but my bolt loads are way longer then will ever fit in a ar15 grendel mag and dont fit in stock cz grendel mags. My mags have been modified to fit a longer coal length.

[Cal]

Thanks for the info. I'll be on the lookout for H4895, Varget and ARComp.

[BowChamp]

You owe it to yourself to try AR-Comp.

[outbreaker]

I used to use CFE223 all the time. I noticed in my gun that the loads I would develop at a temp would lose accuracy and have POI shifts with temp changes. I used CFE223 before Hodgdon had it listed on their website data for the Grendel. I looked a few weeks ago and they have pulled it again.

I have moved on to TAC and have found a much larger accuracy node and am hoping for enough temp stability to make it useful for hunting.

[outbreaker]

I gave up on cfe223 some time in 2021 maybe even closer too 2020 time frame.

Good powder never acted spikey but the huge velocity loss from normal temps too coldfront temps while hunting was just to much for my taste. Plus every load I worked up for it went to crap when the temps dropped.

Most loads I used it in I moved over too arcomp. The bolt grendel loads I used cfe223 in got h4895 or varget but my bolt loads are way longer then will ever fit in a ar15 grendel mag and dont fit in stock cz grendel mags. My mags have been modified to fit a longer coal length.

Exactly what I noticed.

[Cal]

Thanks everybody, I've started out with CFE223 cause that's what I have. With all the problems though, maybe I'll keep it for my .223 and 300yrds and under.

Does anyone have experience with Accurate LT-32? Midsouth had it in and my Lee loading manual shows data for it.

How about H4831SC?

I'm still looking for ARComp and H4895.