108gr Lapua Scenar

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  • Second
    Warrior
    • Oct 2017
    • 240

    108gr Lapua Scenar

    I have tested a lot of bullets, but once again have I come back to this one.

    My rifle that I use for all the data and info that I will post is a custom Rem 700SA.
    This barrel is in HV-contour and in 1:8 twist Krieger. The length of the barrel is from boltface to muzzle 653mm (25,7")
    The throat have been extended 2,5mm (0,09") from the SAAMI chamber "standard" so that I can load longer COAL witch give me more room in the case for more powder.
    The distance to the lands = jump, is now at the start 1.0mm (~0.0393"). Have the correct COAL measurement at home, but the BTO for this with a Hornady 6,5mm insert is 46,4mm.
    I also use a Aimsport Triton 42S silencer. MV and speed data is done with a Magnetospeed Sporter.

    So the bullet is the Lapua Scenar 108gr.
    Have used this bullet before in another barrel with standard SAAMI-specs. And it shot really great. After the Krieger was installed I went directly into testing heavy bullets in 140gr and 130gr to find a heavy bullet for long ranges. (Separate threads for these tests exist here on the forum if someone is interested.)

    For this test I have started with the Vihtavuori N530.

    I have done several test already, but I will post the different test here so there is some background to where I started.
    In my shorter and standard Grendel I tested this bullet and this powder up to 27,0gr. But since I had a other powder that worked well, no more testing was done. So this was my starting point for this test with the Krieger. I knew that I could fit more powder in, but wanted to take it slow and work my way up with the loads.

    So first test was done from 26,6gr of N530 and up to 28,2gr in 0,2gr increments.
    And here result in a graph:
    GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 Test 1.JPG
    In this first test, I used a muzzle break and not the silencer. So the following test I have been using the silencer, so the speeds is not really good for comparison.
    No signs of high pressure so for the next test, more powder was used.
    Loaded from 27,8gr up to 28,8gr but now with 0,1gr increments.
    Here the result from the second test in a graph:
    GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 Test 2.JPG
    Got some really high speeds on the highest loads, but no pressure signs. It looked to be a good speed node around 28,6gr and maybe around 28,3-28,4gr. I focused on those two charges but it ended up in a third test with loads from 28,2gr up to 29,1gr in 0,1gr increments. Pushing it really high with the 29,1gr but all cases inspected for high pressure.
    Here is the result from the third test in a graph:
    GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 Test 3.JPG
    This test was a good confirmation that I did found a really good flat spot and node in the 29,3-29,4gr load. Also a higher node appeared at 29,0gr.
    These two loads was the "center of attention" for the forth test. For the lower load 28,3gr was the center and loaded from 28,1gr up to 28,5gr in 0,1gr increments. The load 28,0gr was CBS and sighters.
    On the higher node the load 29,0 was the center and loaded from 28,8gr up to 29,2gr.
    Here is the result from the forth test in a graph:
    GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 Test 4.JPG
    Once again I got good info that I have found two good loads.
    I have not yet done any shooting on the target for groups, since all shots have been with different loads. However, I had a target for other shooting left and for the lower testload on this forth test, the 5 loads from 28,1gr up to 28,5 was fired at this target. The goal was absolutely not to shoot any group, but this was the result on the target for this small ladder test:
    GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 Test 4.1.JPG
    There is four bullets in a line and the last bullet was on the right, and my fault alone.
    So this gives great confident that the bullet and load can shoot.

    For the next test, I have loaded 10pcs of the 28,4gr and 10pcs of the 29,0gr. I will shoot 5-shot groups a target and at the same time collect data for the 10pcs to get average speed and SD/ES.
    This test will be done tomorrow, if all works well. So result will follow.
    Last edited by Second; 03-13-2020, 10:59 AM. Reason: Added info reg. jump.
  • tdbru
    Warrior
    • Dec 2019
    • 757

    #2
    well done Second.
    -tdbru

    Comment

    • Second
      Warrior
      • Oct 2017
      • 240

      #3
      Went directly to the range after work yesterday to do the test for two loads on target, powder VV N530.
      Range 97m (~106yrds)
      Temp: +2C
      Pressure: 973hPa
      Humidity: 64%
      Altitude over sea level: 300m (~984ft)

      Two loads with 10 shots each.
      Shot at target in 2 separate 5-shot groups. Shooting done prone with bipod and rear bag. Started with 3 shots for CBS and sighting.

      For each load with 10 shots the speed was checked with a Magnetospeed.
      Result from the chrono:

      28.4gr of N530
      Avg: 852 m/s (~2795 fps)
      SD: 2 m/s (~6.5 fps)
      ES: 7 m/s (~23 fps)

      29.0gr of N530
      Avg: 870 m/s (~2854 fps)
      SD: 3 m/s (~9.8 fps)
      ES: 9 m/s (29.5 fps)

      Result on targets:
      28.4gr group 1.
      GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 28,4gr Tavla.1.JPG
      28.4gr group 2.
      GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 28,4gr Tavla.2.JPG
      29.0gr group 1.
      GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 29,0gr Tavla.1.JPG
      29.0gr group 2.
      GR-KR 108gr Scenar N530 29,0gr Tavla.2.JPG

      The absolute first shot on target No.1 with 28.4gr was the high left. After that all stacked well. Target No.2 with 28.4gr was shot directly after and the shift in POI is little confusing. Something happened.
      The first shot on the target No.1 with 29.0gr was the flyer on the right but after that the group was good. The target No.2 with 29.0gr is nothing else than pure frustration....Fist two shots landed one to the left and one to the right. The mirage started to build up and I just slammed of the last 3 shots. Yes I know. I am immature.

      The speed is nice and the data is OK.
      I like the loads and the cases looked absolutely fine. No signs of high pressure. But still, the groups should have been better and the POI should not have shifted that much. The cases have however been fired many times >10 firings each. And I have noticed some signs of ware on them. Also is it very noticeable that the neck tension is shifting when the bullet is seated.
      If the cases is a reason for the groups, I do not know.

      What I do know is that I loaded up the exact same loads yesterday. 10 shots each and will on the next test redo the test on target.
      Difference will be me for the most part. I will force myself to take it slow and really try to focus on the shooting.

      Comment

      • Bobke
        Warrior
        • Dec 2015
        • 256

        #4
        Last edited by Bobke; 03-13-2020, 09:41 AM.

        Comment

        • Second
          Warrior
          • Oct 2017
          • 240

          #5
          If needed, I might test a little more around the 28.1 to 28.5gr.
          The next test with the two loads 28.4gr and 29.0gr will give more info on witch one of the nodes to focus on.

          I edited my first post with info regarding jump for this bullet and load. I currently have 1.0mm (~0.0393") of jump to the lands.
          I have a modified case and the Hornady COAL measuring rod that gives me the MAX COAL, all measured on the ogive (BTO), not the tip (COAL).
          Regarding jump with the Scenar, I have another experience. And with the exact same bullet, 108gr Scenar. In my other Grendel barrel I shot these bullets with 0.2mm (~0.007") jump to the lands. And that shoot very well.
          With this extended throat on the current Krieger, that would not work so great since the bullet is not seated enough if 0.2mm jump would be used. With the 1mm jump that I have now, I think that the bullet is seated 4mm in the neck of the case. So I did not wanted to go any closer to the lands as a starting point.

          If I need to, I will of course test different seating depth for more tuning.

          The cases have not been annealed, and for sure I have felt difference in the neck tension. Felt a little loose primer pocket on one of the cases when seating the primers, but it was still seating tight, but a little lighter than the others.
          The cases might be one of the week links in this. The last cases was loaded yesterday for this second test. It might be the last run with them and I can take the newer ones for future tests and shooting. Have 100pcs that only have been fired a few times.

          Comment

          • Second
            Warrior
            • Oct 2017
            • 240

            #6
            Went to the range this weekend and did the second test on target with this bullet and N530 powder.
            Two loads, same as previous test. 28,4gr and 29,0gr with 10 shots each shot in 5-shot groups at a target 97m (~106yrd). Prone with bipod and rear bag.
            4 shots was fired as CBS and sighters.

            Very nice winter morning with -8C temperature.
            For this test, no chrono. Just shooting.

            Target result:
            IMG_5030.JPG
            First group of the day up to the left corner with 28,4gr felt great, and the group was great also. Very pleased with that.
            Took a short break and then next group up to the right corner. First shot was the top left and then 3 shots grouped, and then last shot landed top right. This group is in many ways very similar to the second group shot from the previous test. A diagonal spread and the POI have shifted from the first group...not very happy with that.

            The lower left group was shot next after a break and same pattern again. Fist shot landed high left, then 3 shots grouped well and the last shot landed high right. A short break to let the barrel rest a little and then the last group down to the right. I really tried to shoot this group good, but on target, not so good.

            Some questions have been raised but not really sure how to attack them. Is the first top group just pure luck? Why do the POI shift that much? Is it me or the gun or the cases or...? I hope it is me, because then I might be able to do something about it. If it is the gun, or the barre, then I have a bigger problem. Either way, the cases that I have been using for this tests are now all been used so for future test will the newer cases be used that have less firings.

            For the following test, the lower charge 28,4gr will be used. Maybe test a little more around that load with different charges, or maybe just load the 28,4gr and test more groups at target.

            Comment

            • Lemonaid
              Warrior
              • Feb 2019
              • 997

              #7
              Second, what is your barrel cleaning procedure? Do you clean all copper out before testing or just clean out carbon? How many rounds before it's time to clean? A easy test would be to clean the carbon with a patch or two between the first two groups and then not clean the next two.
              You see where I'm going with this, the difference between the very good group and the others may be barrel condition?
              The other thing it may be is a harmonic effect, test again with magnetospeed attached? More data is good!

              Comment

              • Second
                Warrior
                • Oct 2017
                • 240

                #8
                Originally posted by Lemonaid View Post
                Second, what is your barrel cleaning procedure? Do you clean all copper out before testing or just clean out carbon? How many rounds before it's time to clean? A easy test would be to clean the carbon with a patch or two between the first two groups and then not clean the next two.
                You see where I'm going with this, the difference between the very good group and the others may be barrel condition?
                The other thing it may be is a harmonic effect, test again with magnetospeed attached? More data is good!
                IMG_4867.JPG
                Last edited by Second; 03-16-2020, 10:52 AM.

                Comment

                • Bobke
                  Warrior
                  • Dec 2015
                  • 256

                  #9

                  Comment

                  • Second
                    Warrior
                    • Oct 2017
                    • 240

                    #10
                    All measurements have been done on the ogive. The Scenars are pretty consistent, but they do shift in length.
                    All rounds are measured after the bullet seating and the difference in BTO are kept within 0.02mm (~0.001").

                    Have not really decided yet if I should test a little more around the charge 28,4gr, maybe go down to 28,1gr and load up to 28,5gr in 0,1gr increments and shoot on target.
                    Or if I test different jump first.

                    Comment

                    • Second
                      Warrior
                      • Oct 2017
                      • 240

                      #11
                      Did the decision to test powder first.
                      Loaded up yesterday 5 shots each of loads from 28,1gr of N530 up to 28,5gr. Loaded in 0,1gr increments.
                      The plan is to shoot at target in a "Round Robin"-style at 97meters tomorrow after work. No chrono, just target.
                      Will be back with result.

                      Comment

                      • Second
                        Warrior
                        • Oct 2017
                        • 240

                        #12
                        Rage trip yesterday after work.
                        I changed my mind regarding the chrono and used that also. Figured that since it do not affect the POI, it is better to use it and collect data at the same time since I am trying lower charges.

                        Used the newer brass for this test.
                        Jump to the lands is 1.0mm (~0.0393").
                        About +3C and a little wind from 10-11 a clock.
                        All shots were fired in "Round Robin"-style.

                        Speed results from the different charges. Have only collected the average data for this test. Powder as previous VV N530

                        1.
                        28.1gr
                        Avg: 844 m/s
                        SD: 3
                        ES: 7

                        2.
                        28.2gr
                        Avg: 847 m/s
                        SD: 1
                        ES: 3

                        3.
                        28.3gr
                        Avg: 848 m/s
                        SD: 3
                        ES: 8

                        4.
                        28.4gr (same load as I tested and focused on before)
                        Avg: 850 m/s
                        SD: 2
                        ES: 7

                        5.
                        28.5gr
                        Avg: 855 m/s
                        SD: 3
                        ES: 7

                        And result on the OCW target.
                        GR-KR 180gr Scenar N530 OCW Tavla.1.JPG
                        No.1 was the best for sure, and the last shot was of course the flyer on the left
                        No.2 and No.3 had the same procedure. First shot landed high right on both of them. Then 3 shots on quite the same POI and then one more high right. The No.4 was the first shot the low right, after that three of them landed around the same POI of No.2 and No.3. The No.5 was not nice at all.

                        Must admit that I was looking forward to find 5 small round groups on all charges. But that did not happened. And also, the charge 28.4gr that I thought to be a "winner" from previous tests did not shine at all.

                        But going forward. If I look at where the bullets have landed and the average speed, the load 28.3gr might be something to test different seating depth around. Or should I redo the whole test one more time to see if there is any confirmations in these results from this test?
                        Last edited by Second; 03-23-2020, 08:30 AM. Reason: Added SD/ES

                        Comment

                        • Bobke
                          Warrior
                          • Dec 2015
                          • 256

                          #13
                          Appears 28.3 POI is very close to centered in between 28.2 and 28.4. Run your seating depth test, +/- .020 of current .039 in in .005 increments. You should see one or two stand out from the rest. Good work.

                          Comment

                          • Jakal
                            Warrior
                            • May 2014
                            • 376

                            #14
                            Don't use new brass again, use the brass that has already been fireformed. By your 3rd ladder with the same brass, you will see the difference.
                            ""Come taste my Shillelagh you goat-eatin bastard!""

                            Comment

                            • Second
                              Warrior
                              • Oct 2017
                              • 240

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jakal View Post
                              Don't use new brass again, use the brass that has already been fireformed. By your 3rd ladder with the same brass, you will see the difference.
                              My bad here on the brass.

                              The new brass is not NEW new. They are newer than the old ones.
                              The old ones have well over 10 firings and the newer have about 5 firings. So in my mind the newer brass is the new brass.
                              And that was why I called them the new brass.

                              Comment

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