New Reloader - Reloading Workflow Sanity Check

**Sturmgewehr** · 02-02-2020, 01:17 AM

I found the Sierra Manual useful as a noob.
Has a whole section on reloading gas guns.
It will answer most of your questions so that your list isn't so long.

**LRRPF52** · 02-02-2020, 04:45 AM

You might consider reducing your tool list down a bit for starters, as you'll see many of the steps and tools you've acquired aren't necessary.

You don't need to anneal, uniform the primer pockets, uniform the flash holes, trim (Grendel), neck-turn (it's a gas gun with a generous neck tolerance), or crimp.

From your list, I would:

1. Segregate your brass based on manufacturer. You don't want different case volumes/alloys mixed together in the same load lots. For me, this means separating all Hornady, Lapua, Federal, brass into their own bins.

2. De-capping: You can de-cap with a universal de-capping die that isn't concerned with the case bodies being dirty since there isn't any side wall interface with those dies.

3. Polish/clean: Tumble-polish with preferred method using dry media. Don't mess with the additives unless it is recommended to work with the media and brass. Some additives might compromise the metallurgy of the brass, weakening it.

4. Tumble in a media separator bin to get the media out from inside the cases.

5. Clean out the primer pockets and flash holes of any media residue or particles that jam into the flash holes.

6. Lube: Spray-lube your brass with Hornady One-Shot or Dillon. I like to spray them all inside a plastic tub with the case necks pointing up, or in one of my load trays, getting multiple angles on them so that the lube is uniform and inside the necks. A lighter dusting works well, without completely soaking them excessively. Let them dry per the directions while you go on to setting up your sizing die.

7. Case-Sizing: To set up your sizing die, follow the directions after cleaning the die from any shipping grease/oil if necessary. I like to turn my expander balls so that there are no machining marks on them. This is easy with a drill and fine sandpaper, followed by polishing compound. I like a smooth transition as the expander ball pushes through the neck in and out, without any tool marks to cause microscopic stress risers inside the neck that will lead to split necks.

8. As you turn down the die, use your Hornady Headspace Comparator kit with the .350" bushing which will indicate off of the center datum of your shoulder. This will show you the difference between an unfired factory case and your de-primed, fire-formed brass.

Check at least 5 pieces of brass to see where your shoulder datum is at for fire-formed loads. It should be somewhere in the 1.220" region, with factory ammo being in the 1.205" case head-to-shoulder datum. Since we don't want 15 thousandths of movement firing, and 15 thou back during sizing every time, you'll want to control this with how far your sizing die is turned down.

Start by moving the shoulder back 3 thousandths and see if it will chamber in your chamber. Without damaging the neck, carefully feed the brass into your chamber and see if the bolt carrier group will go into battery. Be prepared to have to push it out with a rod if it sticks. I personally have a spare bolt that I stripped with the same bolt face depth and lug lengths so I can just see if it will close and rotate in my barrel extension with the piece of brass in the chamber.

9. Once you find a setting with your die that will reliably chamber and allow the bolt to lock into rotation, test it with several pieces of brass run through the sizing die before you move ahead with sizing all your cases.

10. Size your cases. I'm a bit OCD as well, so I will check a few cases throughout the process to make sure that my die setting is being replicated in all of them. If you want to be OCD, here you can tumble-polish them again and remove any case lube residue, but this will add several more steps and considerable time to the whole operation.

11. Chamfer your case necks and de-bur either with a dedicated brass works station, or with a drill carefully using a de-burring tool, then a socket head with steel wool jammed inside of it for the de-bur operation on the drill. Hornady, Lyman, and others sell motorized brass prep stations that have all the little operations, including a case brush, chamfer, primer pocket reamer, etc. You only need to chamfer and de-bur. If you want to clean the primer pockets, that's fine but I personally don't remove metal from them on Grendel. Set aside one piece of brass for a dummy cartridge that will not be primed or charged, and is easily recognizable to you as a dummy cartridge.

12. Prime your brass. Before starting any priming operation, please don safety glasses. Some use a hand-priming tool, while others use the press. I started out with a hand tool, and switched to the press, which I much prefer. You can do either. Check the primer seating depth that it is .003". I use my calipers with the end being the depth gauge. I'm very particular about this because I don't want any high primers or duds. Seating the primer correctly sets the anvil for optimum ignition, according to the primer manufacturers.

My priming operation with the seating depth check also acts as a QC operation that every case gets a primer before it goes into the load tray, which is where I place my primed cases.

13. Charging: Move your load trays over to the charging station. Only have one canister of the powder you're using out on your load bench, with all others stored away. Set your desired charge weight and measure each weight on your scale. I double-check my weights on another calibrated scale since I'm using an automated powder measure/dispenser. Make sure there is no RF interference to any digital or electronic scales, unless you have already disassembled your scales and lined them with RF insulation (aluminum foil with adhesive). If you're using a hand trickler, it's going to suck really bad trying to load any decent amount of loads to take to the range.

14. As you load each row in your load tray, take a small flashlight and check that all cases have a charge in them.

15. Once you've filled your load tray and all cases are confirmed to have charges in them, move the tray carefully over to your press.

16. Locate your box of bullets, with no other types of bullets near your bullet source when seating. You will now take that unprimed piece of brass and make your dummy cartridge. Set up your seating die according to the manufacturer's instructions. Turn the die down until you find your maximum magazine-allowable COL, turn it down at least .020" more, and then check the dummy cartridge with your chamber to see if it will chamber and extract. If the ogive is jamming the lands, you'll need to turn the die down more plus a small buffer, since your ogives will not all be perfectly uniform from the bullet maker.

Once you find your desired COL, you can set the die there and start seating your charged cases.

17. Bullet seating: Before seating any bullets, check again that all your cases are charged with powder. Place your bullet in that nicely-chamfered and de-burred neck, and partially seat it. Rotate the cartridge ~90˚ and then fully seat it. This will do more to tighten accuracy than all the other benchrest tricks that are totally unnecessary for a gas gun (primer pocket uniforming, flash hole de-burring, etc.). Place the loaded cartridges in your cartridge box until full, then label that box with all the pertinent information.

Bullet
Powder
Primer
Case ("Hornady 1xFF")
COL
Date (optional)

I would send back or sell the following tools you have purchased and buy an RCBS Chargemaster instead with the money:

Case annealer
Hornady LNL Powder Measure
RCBS powder trickler
Hornady Powder Micrometer Insert
Hornady Powder Drain Insert
LE Wilson Case Gauge (totally unnecessary if you have the Hornady headspace comparator set)
Lee factory crimp die
Lyman flash hole uniformer/de-bur hand tool

You could get rid of the Hornady Neck-turner, neck thickness measurement tools, and associated fixtures unless you're looking at the bench rest discipline later on with a dedicated no-size 6mm PPC chamber and custom rifle. Can't return QuickLoad, so I would get rid of that if you could.

The rest of the tools look pretty solid. The RCBS Chargemaster is really where you want to drop your money instead of all the things I listed. You will see this soon enough though.

Looks like you've done a lot of homework though and will be off to a good start if you consider this advice. There may be some that will insist on this or that anal retentive procedure that will mean nothing to you on-target with a semi-auto, but I think most will agree with the basic feedback I've given. We found QuickLoad to be off by 10,000-20,000psi in many instances, compared against multiple industry sources and our own calibrated pressure-test breech, so unless it has been updated and tuned to actual 6.5 Grendel reality, I wouldn't use it right now. The load data you have in the Grendel Handbooks is quite comprehensive. I used QuickLoad when I loaded .308 Winchester without any issues, but it has been way off with Grendel.

You have a lot of tools well beyond what most starters would begin with, and will quickly learn which ones are worthless or not applicable and which ones are absolutely necessary. Looking forward to your results and feel free to ask any questions along the way. Safety is the most important aspect of this discipline.

**MegaHurtz** · 02-02-2020, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by Sturmgewehr View Post

I found the Sierra Manual useful as a noob.
Has a whole section on reloading gas guns.
It will answer most of your questions so that your list isn't so long.

Thanks for the pointer. I will search that resource out - might find sumtin therein that I failed to pickup otherwise.

The long list is the workflow steps that I've conjured up in muh noggin.

There are 6 overt questions below that list, and a few implied questions therein. And @LRRPF52 's response has initiated a couple more.

I'm going to digest the responses and adjust fire as appropriate based on the recommendations from those folks that have been doing this longer than I (i.e. the likes of yourself and others).

EDIT: "...reloading gas guns.": I hadn't really considered that there would be substantive differences for reloading when considering auto-loading gas-(/piston-?)operated weapons when contrasted against a bolt-action weapon. I had conjured up in muh gray matter that 'what works for one (i.e. a Bench Bolt gun) would be applicable to the other (i.e. an auto-loader)'. So, based on what you're alluding to, plus what LRRPF52 has enumerated, I suspect that what is prudent to do when reloading for a bench/target bolt-action weapon is probably wasted effort on the likes of an AR-based system, as the nature of the AR beast is more for tolerant reliability in a tactical combat context rather than for uber precision.?. I find that i am questioning if it still makes sense to apply a common approach for both, in the interests of developing habits of a common process that will lend itself well to an ELR context, at the expense of wasted time/effort when reloading for an AR. Food for thought for sure...

Thanks for your time. It is appreciated.

-MHz

**MegaHurtz** · 02-02-2020, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post

...a lot of good gouge...

Wow, thank you, sir (hopefully a correct gender assumption

).

I've obviously a need to ingest, mull/consider, and adjust fire. Thank you for your time and generosity in responding with such great detail.

I'll be sure to pose some additional questions after considering your input. Hopefully others (i.e. @Klem, etc.) will chime in and offer their learned perspectives.

I look forward to the process of interacting with you all to get smarter and improve my skills (whether it is behind the stock or when pulling down a press' lever), especially in this domain.

Your closing remarks on safety are well founded (and written in the blood of others, I am sure). Thank you for saving the most important points as closing remarks - those are usually best retained by most readers - kudos.

-MHz

**Sturmgewehr** · 02-02-2020, 06:44 AM

Can someone please link to a video clearly depicting how to shoulder bump? I suffer info overload and may be overthinking it.

1/16 of a turn of the die is approx. 0.0045 change. 1/14 * 1/16 - the die has 14 threads per inch or 14 turns to move 1 inch.

**MegaHurtz** · 02-02-2020, 07:48 AM

In case these may be relevant to these discussions, I offer the following reference images as some initial work I did the other day when getting comfortable with some of the tools:

Initial OAL tool efforts
photo_2020-02-02_01-16-32.jpg

Magazine Limitations
photo_2020-02-02_01-31-13.jpg

'Modified Case' in chamber - looking at generosity of chamber's neck length
photo_2020-02-02_01-36-00.jpg

A view of the throat and rifling transition therein
photo_2020-02-02_01-36-08.jpg

This makes me sad - seems like the gas port might not be perpendicular to the friggin bore's axis...
photo_2020-02-02_01-30-16.jpg

gas block resting very lightly on a pic rail attach nut - prolly bad from a bbl whip perspective
photo_2020-02-02_01-30-12.jpg

lol - the hotel might not be too happy with me if they knew I was playing gunsmith in the room (I'm on an extended TDY - shipping all this stuff home might impute me driving back to MI vs. flying home (which is fine - I'd rather have the distraction of being intellectually stimulated vs. drowning muh sorrows in beer/whiskey or netflix)). I did, however, check with them to ensure that having weapons in the rooms were allowed. It is.
photo_2020-02-02_01-31-08.jpg photo_2020-02-02_01-30-51.jpg

This is the gas port on my 16" 5.56 Franken AR (looks a hell of a lot cleaner than the port on my Grendel...):
photo_2020-02-02_01-30-19.jpg

Getting good results at the range with the 6.5G in its current state (hunting scope, old-eyes me shaking the cob-webs loose, etc.) with factory ammo (123gr Hornady AG)
photo_2020-02-02_03-09-02.jpg

**MegaHurtz** · 02-02-2020, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Sturmgewehr View Post

... 1/16 of a turn of the die is approx. 0.0045 change. 1/14 * 1/16 - the die has 14 threads per inch or 14 turns to move 1 inch.

Nice! Thank you.

EDIT: Yep, I was overthinking it. Thanks again!

-MHz

**LR1955** · 02-02-2020, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by MegaHurtz View Post

In case these may be relevant to these discussions, I offer the following reference images as some initial work I did the other day when getting comfortable with some of the tools:

Initial OAL tool efforts
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15410[/ATTACH]

Magazine Limitations
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15411[/ATTACH]

'Modified Case' in chamber - looking at generosity of chamber's neck length
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15412[/ATTACH]

A view of the throat and rifling transition therein
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15413[/ATTACH]

This makes me sad - seems like the gas port might not be perpendicular to the friggin bore's axis...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15414[/ATTACH]

gas block resting very lightly on a pic rail attach nut - prolly bad from a bbl whip perspective
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15416[/ATTACH]

lol - the hotel might not be too happy with me if they knew I was playing gunsmith in the room (I'm on an extended TDY - shipping all this stuff home might impute me driving back to MI vs. flying home (which is fine - I'd rather have the distraction of being intellectually stimulated vs. drowning muh sorrows in beer/whiskey or netflix)). I did, however, check with them to ensure that having weapons in the rooms were allowed. It is.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15417[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]15418[/ATTACH]

This is the gas port on my 16" 5.56 Franken AR (looks a hell of a lot cleaner than the port on my Grendel...):
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15415[/ATTACH]

Getting good results at the range with the 6.5G in its current state (hunting scope, old-eyes me shaking the cob-webs loose, etc.) with factory ammo (123gr Hornady AG)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15420[/ATTACH]

MH:

Looking at your magazine picture, I would seat the bullets deeper and get the tips off the inside front of the magazine. With the Grendel you are generally limited by the magazine length so forget about seating a bullet X amount off the lands unless the magazine accepts that length.

LR55

**MegaHurtz** · 02-02-2020, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by LR1955 View Post

MH:

Looking at your magazine picture, I would seat the bullets deeper and get the tips off the inside front of the magazine. With the Grendel you are generally limited by the magazine length so forget about seating a bullet X amount off the lands unless the magazine accepts that length.

LR55

Thank you. Yeah, that was me with bullets slid into the mouth of unsized FF cases, just to see if my dims were correct.

They were. So, unless I go down the path of manually stuffing rounds into the ejector port, there isn't a means to an end with doing so.

Looks like another reason to consider a proper bolt gun at some point here in the mid-term future...

Thanks again.

-MHz

**LRRPF52** · 02-03-2020, 12:04 AM

A problem with seating to the max magazine-allowable COL is that as the cartridge stack builds, the case taper compounds and now that max COL is actually shorter because of the angle formed by the case head to the tip. From a basic mechanical engineering perspective, the cartridge feed gets hung up inside the walls of the magazine. I learned that the hard way once with .308 Winchester loading 155gr Scenars as far out as possible. They would load and feed up to 15 rounds in a PMAG, but not any more after that. The first cartridge would wedge down there, locking up the magazine.

I tested this out before the competition started just to see how many rounds could be loaded, and I'm glad I did before shooting any of the stages because it could have meant us not placing 2nd like we did (Military 2-Man Team Sniper Competition overseas).

What you're seeing with the gas port could possible be a bur that broke off when the port was cut. This is pretty common. Some of the rifle builders have techniques to mitigate this, while most don't pay much attention to it.

Definitely eliminate that interference between the gas block and the attachment hardware inside the handguard.

**Phil_A** · 02-03-2020, 03:28 AM

If you are going to use the Hornady Custom Grade Dies and load there 120 and 123 ELD bullets, I would check to make sure that the Bullet Seating Stem does not push on the plastic ballistic tip and mush it. I load the Berger 130 VLD's and use Hornady PN 397106 Bullet Seating Stem to clear the tip of the bullet. It is 0.100" deeper then the one that comes with the seating die. I also have the Hornady PN 044090 Micro Adjust seating stem. It makes it easer to keep track of seating depth when you change bullet types or manufactures.

**lazyengineer** · 02-03-2020, 03:28 AM

Wow what a great thread!

**bbqncigars** · 02-03-2020, 04:46 AM

If you want really good measurements of your chamber and leade, buy some Cerrosafe and make a casting.

**teppou** · 02-03-2020, 04:59 AM

That is some great info, thanks. I've been trying to do all that, and having your sample case gauge and COL numbers to verify against my measurements helps me load with more confidence.

Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post

16. Locate your box of bullets, with no other types of bullets near your bullet source when seating. You will now take that unprimed piece of brass and make your dummy cartridge. Set up your sizing die according to the manufacturer's instructions. Turn the die down until you find your maximum magazine-allowable COL, turn it down at least .020" more, and then check the dummy cartridge with your chamber to see if it will chamber and extract. If the ogive is jamming the lands, you'll need to turn the die down more plus a small buffer, since your ogives will not all be perfectly uniform from the bullet maker.

Just for accuracy's sake, shouldn't this reference to 'sizing die' say 'seating die' instead?

New Reloader - Reloading Workflow Sanity Check

New Reloader - Reloading Workflow Sanity Check

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