Collet dies - yea or nay?

[kcb38]

Edit: Sorry, the title should read "Bushing Dies..."
First off, let me explain what my expectations are for my hand loads. I shoot mostly from the bench or prone out to a maximum of 600 yards (hoping to go further someday but that's where I'm at now). I'm shooting casually for groups at 100 to 200 and on steel for pretty much everything beyond that. I'm looking for the best precision I can get without getting too carried away. I want to produce better-than-factory ammo but I'm trying to keep my expectations, expense and time invested to reasonable levels.
I was looking at Redding Type S dies but seems to me that once I head down that road, I'll be looking at extra bushings, neck turning, concentricity gauges,etc, etc, etc. Don't get me wrong, I understand the benefits of all that and the concept of "buy once cry once" but the fact is my time and resources are limited. At this point I'm looking at their Premium die set. It's their standard sizing die upgraded with a carbide expander ball and a micrometer seating die (not their competition model). I can get it for about 110 shipped, which seems reasonable, but am open to suggestions or other recommendations. Thanks

[Klem]

The only manufacturer of collet sizing dies that I am aware is Lee. I am not aware they make a collet die in Grendel. They might agree to make one for a custom order but you would need to be shooting with a bolt gun as they size the neck only.

Are you shooting an auto loader?

[kcb38]

Sorry, bushing dies. Oops
My Grendel is an auto loader and I've been using standard Hornady dies for that, and added the micrometer seater. I may have a Grendel bolt gun in my future but for now I have one in .308 and one in 6.5CM. Those will be my next die purchases.

[centerfire]

You don't have to buy a bushing die to make "better than factory" ammo. There are several die manufacturers that make high quality standard dies. With that said, you also don't have to neck turn your brass to use bushing dies. If you measure carefully you can get away with only buying one neck die. There are pluses and minuses to both types of dies and both are more than capable of doing what you want. For my purposes I prefer the Forster Grendel micrometer dies. If you're looking to save, money members here like Hornady too.

[kcb38]

you also don't have to neck turn your brass to use bushing dies

I understand that's not a requirement when using bushing dies but I was saying something more along the lines of not wanting to get carried away with the reloading process in general. I don't really have the time, the funds or the need to turn it into an obsession, as I have been prone to doing with hobbies in the past.
I don't mind spending money to get good, reliable equipment that isn't a pita to use like so many cheaper products are. I just want to make sure my money is spent in the right places, given my needs and expectations.

[centerfire]

I understand that's not a requirement when using bushing dies but I was saying something more along the lines of not wanting to get carried away with the reloading process in general. I don't really have the time, the funds or the need to turn it into an obsession, as I have been prone to doing with hobbies in the past.
I don't mind spending money to get good, reliable equipment that isn't a pita to use like so many cheaper products are. I just want to make sure my money is spent in the right places, given my needs and expectations.

I don't see a reason to change what you're doing now.

Anecdotally, I was going through the back of my reloading cabinet and found some ammo I loaded almost 20 years ago. Back them I was loading on a beam scale, a Lee press, with RCBS standard dies. I pulled 20 rounds and it measured less than .002" of runout on the case neck and the ogive. The powder weighed +/-.02gr on a lab scale.

[Klem]

Kcb,

Bushing dies...understood.

I save that degree of precision for bolt guns. I imagine it will be hard to see the benefits of all that cost and effort in an AR15. This type of gun does not lend itself to precision even though we squeeze every ounce out of it.

I don't have a bushing die in this calibre, instead it's a normal Forster full-length with the expander ball removed. This and their BR Seater die are more than capable of producing better-than-factory ammo.

[Sinclair]

Kcb,

Bushing dies...understood.

I save that degree of precision for bolt guns. I imagine it will be hard to see the benefits of all that cost and effort in an AR15. This type of gun does not lend itself to precision even though we squeeze every ounce out of it.

I don't have a bushing die in this calibre, instead it's a normal Forster full-length with the expander ball removed. This and their BR Seater die are more than capable of producing better-than-factory ammo.

Anybody,

Why pull the expander ball? Doesn't that make a really tight fit on the bullet? I can see where a boat tail might self start, but what about flat based bullets, won't they shave or crush the neck going in? Just confused, I will be using Forster Bench Rest die set for a bolt gun, but I do not see the reasoning in removing the expander ball.

Sinclair

[A5BLASTER]

Anybody,

Why pull the expander ball? Doesn't that make a really tight fit on the bullet? I can see where a boat tail might self start, but what about flat based bullets, won't they shave or crush the neck going in? Just confused, I will be using Forster Bench Rest die set for a bolt gun, but I do not see the reasoning in removing the expander ball.

Sinclair

Removing the expander works the neck less. Instead of 2 parts of the die working the neck you now only have one part of the die working the neck.

[Sinclair]

A5Blaster,

O.K. I see that , but the bullet will still expand the neck so what have we gained?

Sinclair

[Klem]

Anybody,

Why pull the expander ball? Doesn't that make a really tight fit on the bullet? I can see where a boat tail might self start, but what about flat based bullets, won't they shave or crush the neck going in? Just confused, I will be using Forster Bench Rest die set for a bolt gun, but I do not see the reasoning in removing the expander ball.

Sinclair

Sinclair,

Because it gives more neck tension.

Without the expander ball the Forster FL sizing die imparts between .003 - .004" neck tension. Leaving the ball in gives only .001" which is great for a bolt gun but not an auto loader. The Redding FL die without the expander ball imparts only .001" so this die has been lying idle in the box for years.

It also works the neck less but it means I don't have to buy a more expensive bushing die. It was just a hunch that this might work and I was lucky. Like I say, doing the same with Redding doesn't end up with the same result.

You don't need an expander ball, sizing the outside of the neck is enough, and the bullet going in acts as a mandrel. The precision of the ammo is the same as if I crimped them, but without the extra step of crimping - Same group sizes as crimped.

No issues with flat-bottom bullets (e.g. TNT90). Even flat-bottom bullets are not exactly square. I give the inside necks of new cases a quick ream and this puts a tiny bevel so that would also help.

[Sinclair]

Klem,
You convinced me, I am here to learn so I will give it a try. thank you
Sinclair