Lee Pacesetter die review

[SCJim]

Lee dies constantly get a bad rap on internet forums so I decided to see exactly how they compare to the more expensive die sets

When I first started precision reloading I sized my cases with a Redding body die followed by a Lee Collet neck die. That worked great but it took two trips though a single stage press for each case,. I upgraded one of cartridges to a Redding S bushing die. About a year ago I became curious as to how the 2 methods stacked up against each other I did a test using .260 Remington brass sizing 15 by each method and checking the runout on the loaded bullets. Cases were Peterson small rifle .260 Remington on their 4th reload. Cases were prepped by depriming with a universal depinner, given a three hour wet spin with stainless pins then annealed. After annealing twenty were lubed and sized using each method then given a 15 minute spin in walnut to remove the lube. After the cleaning I trimmed them to 2.025 then necks deburred inside and out. Powder was added and 120 SMK's were seated using a Redding micrometer seater. All dies were cleaned with electrical contact cleaner and a microfiber cloth. Lee collet was adjusted uisng the instructions here http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...#post-36644901

I checked the concentricity using a Hornady Concentrity tool with the .0005 dial indicator. The tool was cleaned with contact cleaner where the base and bullet rides. Each cartridge was wiped with a microfiber cloth before it was checked. I insert the cartridge and check for runout by rotating the case in 90 degree increments while holding the "bullet" end of the holder to prevent rotation of the tool. If the runout was .0005 or less it passed. If greater than .001 I removed the cartridge, marked the "high" spot with a sharpie then rotated 90 degrees in the tool and checked a second time and a third time.

results - FL Redding bushing with the expander ball removed - 45 % came out with runout of less than .0005 with a extreme of .00175. Using the Redding body die with the Lee Collet neck sizer 25% were less than .0005 with a extreme of .002. I was able to tweak the runout on all of them back to less than .0005 with the Hornady tool. Most cases using both methods hovered around .001 to .0015 runout.

Last evening I prepped 15 once fired Starline 6.5 Grendel cases and resized them using a Lee FL resizer and Lee seating die. The cases were deprimed and resized in one step the loaded with 123 SMKs then checked for runout using the same rig I used on the .260 cases. I came up with the following number. maximum runout was .003, and minimum was .0005. The mean was .0018 runout with a std deviation of .0007. Checking seating depth using a Hornady comparator and a Starret 120a dial caliper I found a maximum base to ogive seating depth variance of .002. Most likely due to variations on the bullets themselves

External finish on the Lees is average, the Redding dies lettering and knurling is sharper and the finish is superb. Performance wise the Redding S bushing and the Lee Collet outperformed the Pacesetter die set but not by much. Lees are not as pretty and have zero internet brag factor but with a maximum runout of .003 and a average of less than .002 does it matter? The entire Lee set cost $25.99, a Redding S bushing FL die is $65.00 + another 10 - 15 for each bushing and a Redding micrometer seating die is $90.00. Lee does not make a standard Lee Collet Neck die for the 6.5 Grendel so that option is out unless you talk to Lee about having one custom made but Redding does have a body die for $33.00. Will I upgrade my dies in the future? may, maybe not. Certainly not until I own a bolt gun in the Grendel and maybe not even then depending on how the rifles print on paper at range. I cannot find any hard data anywhere on how much runout it takes to affect group sizes on paper. Opinions vary from .002 to .005 for precision ammo on the blogs.

[Cereal Thriller]

Some good info there, thanks for sharing.

I just got done loading (50) 120gr SMK hpbt rounds for testing using a lee pacesetter literally an hour ago.

I really like my redding dies and lyman dies, the redding micrometer seater can really spoil a person. After using them for so long Lee dies almost feel like a Chinese knock off set or finish of a matchbox car.

[SCJim]

Some good info there, thanks for sharing.

I just got done loading (50) 120gr SMK hpbt rounds for testing using a lee pacesetter literally an hour ago.

I really like my redding dies and lyman dies, the redding micrometer seater can really spoil a person. After using them for so long Lee dies almost feel like a Chinese knock off set or finish of a matchbox car.

I have Redding FL bushings now in .260 Rem, 6.0 Creedmoor , and .223. My seaters are across the board. RCBS for .223, Redding for .260 Rem and Forster for 6CM. I use them all without the expander button. My favorite micrometer seater is the RCBS, that side slot makes for fewer pinched fingers when loading those little 50 grainers. I agree the Lee's have no where the fit and finish as the more expensive dies but they seem to work almost as well. For the money they are outstanding dies. I will probably continue to use them with the Grendel until I build a precision bolt rifle around the cartridge and want to play with neck tension

[Cereal Thriller]

Friend of mine has really dove into the neck turning of brass. He does primarily for his 6.5CM for distance shooting, sadly where he lives doesn't have facilities long enough for him. Its a 3hr drive for him to really stretch out the Creeds legs. Met up with him in Georgia late last month and got try out his latest creation. Gun is great and his bullets are works of art and the consistent accuracy shines.

[LR1955]

Lee dies constantly get a bad rap on internet forums so I decided to see exactly how they compare to the more expensive die sets

When I first started precision reloading I sized my cases with a Redding body die followed by a Lee Collet neck die. That worked great but it took two trips though a single stage press for each case,. I upgraded one of cartridges to a Redding S bushing die. About a year ago I became curious as to how the 2 methods stacked up against each other I did a test using .260 Remington brass sizing 15 by each method and checking the runout on the loaded bullets. Cases were Peterson small rifle .260 Remington on their 4th reload. Cases were prepped by depriming with a universal depinner, given a three hour wet spin with stainless pins then annealed. After annealing twenty were lubed and sized using each method then given a 15 minute spin in walnut to remove the lube. After the cleaning I trimmed them to 2.025 then necks deburred inside and out. Powder was added and 120 SMK's were seated using a Redding micrometer seater. All dies were cleaned with electrical contact cleaner and a microfiber cloth. Lee collet was adjusted uisng the instructions here http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...#post-36644901

I checked the concentricity using a Hornady Concentrity tool with the .0005 dial indicator. The tool was cleaned with contact cleaner where the base and bullet rides. Each cartridge was wiped with a microfiber cloth before it was checked. I insert the cartridge and check for runout by rotating the case in 90 degree increments while holding the "bullet" end of the holder to prevent rotation of the tool. If the runout was .0005 or less it passed. If greater than .001 I removed the cartridge, marked the "high" spot with a sharpie then rotated 90 degrees in the tool and checked a second time and a third time.

results - FL Redding bushing with the expander ball removed - 45 % came out with runout of less than .0005 with a extreme of .00175. Using the Redding body die with the Lee Collet neck sizer 25% were less than .0005 with a extreme of .002. I was able to tweak the runout on all of them back to less than .0005 with the Hornady tool. Most cases using both methods hovered around .001 to .0015 runout.

Last evening I prepped 15 once fired Starline 6.5 Grendel cases and resized them using a Lee FL resizer and Lee seating die. The cases were deprimed and resized in one step the loaded with 123 SMKs then checked for runout using the same rig I used on the .260 cases. I came up with the following number. maximum runout was .003, and minimum was .0005. The mean was .0018 runout with a std deviation of .0007. Checking seating depth using a Hornady comparator and a Starret 120a dial caliper I found a maximum base to ogive seating depth variance of .002. Most likely due to variations on the bullets themselves

External finish on the Lees is average, the Redding dies lettering and knurling is sharper and the finish is superb. Performance wise the Redding S bushing and the Lee Collet outperformed the Pacesetter die set but not by much. Lees are not as pretty and have zero internet brag factor but with a maximum runout of .003 and a average of less than .002 does it matter? The entire Lee set cost $25.99, a Redding S bushing FL die is $65.00 + another 10 - 15 for each bushing and a Redding micrometer seating die is $90.00. Lee does not make a standard Lee Collet Neck die for the 6.5 Grendel so that option is out unless you talk to Lee about having one custom made but Redding does have a body die for $33.00. Will I upgrade my dies in the future? may, maybe not. Certainly not until I own a bolt gun in the Grendel and maybe not even then depending on how the rifles print on paper at range. I cannot find any hard data anywhere on how much runout it takes to affect group sizes on paper. Opinions vary from .002 to .005 for precision ammo on the blogs.

SCJ:

Given a choice between the Lee Grendel die set and a Hornady, Redding, or RCBS, which one do you recommend for a guy who wants to buy a set of dies for his Grendel?

Given a choice between a Rock Chucker, Redding T-7, Hornady Lock N Load, and a Bonnanza CoAx and any Lee press, which one do you recommend for a guy who wants to buy a press?

LR55

[SCJim]

SCJ:

Given a choice between the Lee Grendel die set and a Hornady, Redding, or RCBS, which one do you recommend for a guy who wants to buy a set of dies for his Grendel?

Given a choice between a Rock Chucker, Redding T-7, Hornady Lock N Load, and a Bonnanza CoAx and any Lee press, which one do you recommend for a guy who wants to buy a press?

LR55

Get what you want and can afford would be the best advice I believe

Now for my opinion and that is all it is, just a opinion

Redding or Lee for the dies, Lee or Rockchucker for the press. My reasoning behind this is the press only has one job and one job only, force the case into the dies. The cases are floating in shellholders so any arguments about alignment are just BS. With a CoAx style press the dies float for alignment, with a conventional the cases float in the shellholder for alignment. I have 4 presses on and under my bench. A Lee Classic O style, a RCBS Rockchucker, a Bald Eagle arbor press and a Hornady AP. I gave my son in law a old Lee turret. I bet I loaded 20K pistol and rifle rounds on that little press and the son in law is still using it. The RC is a work horse, if I had to choose only one press it would be a RC. The only problem I have with it is the spent primers. I used the magnet/soda straw hack and now 98% of my spent primers go where they are supposed to. The arbor press used with inline dies gives the best feel when seating bullets. That is what I use to seat competition ammo, thatway I can cull anyrounds that don't feel right when seating the bullets. I have noticed no difference in runout using the arbor press or a regular press.

A set of Lee Pacesetter dies will get the job done, they just don't look as pretty. I am going to stick these Lee's until/unless I go to 6.5 Grendel in a bolt rifle where I can play with neck tension and seating depth. At that point I will upgrade the sizing die to a Redding S bushing full length and probably go with a micrometer seating die.

Just my 2 cents worth, every brand you mentioned works and has fans or the companies would go out of business pretty fast. Personal preference and brag factor comes into play in most of these discussions. I tend to go with the least expensive gear that gets the job done correctly and instead put my money into barrels, triggers, stocks, and ammo components to practice with but on occasion I will splurge or just buy something to play with. I may upgrade my powder throw to a Culver, the Hornady works fine but that brass and chrome sure would look great on my bench. Same for my press, I am thinking of purchasing a co ax, just for the look/fancy factor. Get what makes you happy

[LR1955]

Get what you want and can afford would be the best advice I believe

Now for my opinion and that is all it is, just a opinion

Redding or Lee for the dies, Lee or Rockchucker for the press. My reasoning behind this is the press only has one job and one job only, force the case into the dies. The cases are floating in shellholders so any arguments about alignment are just BS. With a CoAx style press the dies float for alignment, with a conventional the cases float in the shellholder for alignment. I have 4 presses on and under my bench. A Lee Classic O style, a RCBS Rockchucker, a Bald Eagle arbor press and a Hornady AP. I gave my son in law a old Lee turret. I bet I loaded 20K pistol and rifle rounds on that little press and the son in law is still using it. The RC is a work horse, if I had to choose only one press it would be a RC. The only problem I have with it is the spent primers. I used the magnet/soda straw hack and now 98% of my spent primers go where they are supposed to. The arbor press used with inline dies gives the best feel when seating bullets. That is what I use to seat competition ammo, thatway I can cull anyrounds that don't feel right when seating the bullets. I have noticed no difference in runout using the arbor press or a regular press.

A set of Lee Pacesetter dies will get the job done, they just don't look as pretty. I am going to stick these Lee's until/unless I go to 6.5 Grendel in a bolt rifle where I can play with neck tension and seating depth. At that point I will upgrade the sizing die to a Redding S bushing full length and probably go with a micrometer seating die.

Just my 2 cents worth, every brand you mentioned works and has fans or the companies would go out of business pretty fast. Personal preference and brag factor comes into play in most of these discussions. I tend to go with the least expensive gear that gets the job done correctly and instead put my money into barrels, triggers, stocks, and ammo components to practice with but on occasion I will splurge or just buy something to play with. I may upgrade my powder throw to a Culver, the Hornady works fine but that brass and chrome sure would look great on my bench. Same for my press, I am thinking of purchasing a co ax, just for the look/fancy factor. Get what makes you happy

SCJ:

Sure, I could argue but I won't.

The Lee dies ruined perfectly good and at the time very rare Grendel brass for me. About the only thing that worked with them was that they would screw into a press. And it wasn't me, the case lube, or anything else. Gouges in the necks from the bleed hole they put in the die, grossly overworking the necks because the die was too small, an oversized decapping pin that would get stuck in the flash holes and pull out of the rod, an oversized expander button that will get stuck in the neck and end up pulling the entire rod out of its retainer. Die locking rings that used a rubber gasket between the ring and the die body which would loosen up in a few operations of the press. Somewhat astounded at their lack of quality.

Almost every guy on the forum who has written complaining about some sort of problem with sized brass was using a Lee sizing die. Replacement of the die and the problems were solved in almost all cases.

I do have a Lee Classic single stage on my bench. Great for pulling bullets and pushing lubed cast bullets through the Lee Sizing die and hopper system (pretty innovative). It is lousy for reloading.

LR55

[centerfire]

My experience is that you can make almost any brand equipment work. I could get .001 or less runout using an RCBS RC press and almost all of the brand's discussed dies. However, it took careful setup and trial and error to get it right. With the Forster CoAx press, using Forster or Redding dies and a Sinclair mandrel, I can get .001 or less runout without any specific setup at all. Just put in the die set to where I want it and go, the ammunition comes out nearly perfect.

FWIW, I am not a Lee Precision die fan. I think their QC is terrible and you get what you pay for. Some of the gear is a good value though, decapping dies, powder measure, etc.

[SCJim]

I do have a Lee Classic single stage on my bench. Great for pulling bullets and pushing lubed cast bullets through the Lee Sizing die and hopper system (pretty innovative). It is lousy for reloading.

LR55

specific complaints on the Lees performance? I keep mine mounted on a piece of plywood and carry it to the range for load development. Once I find a flat node I load up 25 or 30 rounds seat them wayyyyyy long and then at the range play with the seating depth. I would not want to FL resize a .338 Lapua case with the Lee but for anything up to .308 it works fine. At least Lee has a good used primer catch system that works without any modification, that is more than my RC can say. Before I modded it it puked spent primers worse than a frat boy spewing beer at his first keg party. Back on the old Lee turret that my son in law has now I resized some 30 06. It worked.

Biggest misconception and old wives tales on presses is they have something to do with neck alignment, they do not. All press designs have to allow either case movement or die movement to allow the case to align itself with the dies bore, If both the case and the die were held rigid there would be case damage if the case were not perfectly aligned. If you use a conventional press take a case and insert it into the shellholder and wiggle it, if you use a co ax place a die into the press and wiggle it. That movement has to be present for the press to operate correctly. Think of the end of the die in operation like a forcing cone on a revolver guiding a fired bullet into the barrel

edit - tell ya what though as soon as I get a load developed for the Grendel I will size and seat 10 rounds on the RC and 10 rounds on the Lee and see if it shows on paper. When I upgrade to a bushing die I will do the same test with the Lee dies and the Redding dies. I won't be doing that until I get a bolt gun though. With this rifle I want those necks as tight as I can get w/o causing jacket damage

[caleb90]

ive always ran lee dies till i got my 6.5 grendel, after doing reaearch on this forum i decided to go with the hornady. after getting the hornady set i came to the conclusion of replacing all my bottle neck rifle dies over to hornady from lee. now lee strait wall rifle and pistol dies are well worth the money and see no need to switch them over to some thing else.

[SCJim]

ive always ran lee dies till i got my 6.5 Grendel, after doing research on this forum i decided to go with the Hornady. after getting the Hornady set i came to the conclusion of replacing all my bottle neck rifle dies over to Hornady from lee. now lee strait wall rifle and pistol dies are well worth the money and see no need to switch them over to some thing else.

Just out of curiosity why did you choose Hornady, I am sure they are good products but why them specifically?

What caused you to switch? At this time the concentricity and seating depth uniformity I am getting is more than acceptable for a AR style rifle but when I go to a bolt rifle I want to play with neck tension and seating depth more. I have RCBS, Forster, Wilson, and Redding dies for .223, 6CM,.260 Rem and .308's but no Hornady. I have a lot of other Hornady tools on my bench, and no clue as to why I never tried their dies the rest of their products are well made and and affordable. I currently leaning toward a Redding S full length and a Forster micrometer seater so sell me on Hornady dies.

Edit never mind, no Hornady bushing style dies and no micrometer seating dies for the Grendel listed at Midway. No offense meant I am sure their other dies are fine but just they do not make the dies I want for this cartridge

[caleb90]

Just out of curiosity why did you choose Hornady, I am sure they are good products but why them specifically?

What caused you to switch? At this time the concentricity and seating depth uniformity I am getting is more than acceptable for a AR style rifle but when I go to a bolt rifle I want to play with neck tension and seating depth more. I have RCBS, Forster, Wilson, and Redding dies for .223, 6CM,.260 Rem and .308's but no Hornady. I have a lot of other Hornady tools on my bench, and no clue as to why I never tried their dies the rest of their products are well made and and affordable. I currently leaning toward a Redding S full length and a Forster micrometer seater so sell me on Hornady dies.

Edit never mind, no Hornady bushing style dies and no micrometer seating dies for the Grendel listed at Midway. No offense meant I am sure their other dies are fine but just they do not make the dies I want for this cartridge

i chose hornady for value and quality, im sure the redding dies that are made only 45min from me might look better but i wasnt going to spend the extra 60 bucks or so to find out if they worked better. the hornady dies have great reviews and i have great luck with there products, and i wasnt dissapointed when i got the dies. im sure if you called hornady they will make you a competition die for the 6.5 grendel and you can buy there micro seating stem and add it to there normall seating die.. also i still use the lee fcd on all pistol and rifle rounds, they are an awsome product

[LR1955]

specific complaints on the Lees performance? I keep mine mounted on a piece of plywood and carry it to the range for load development. Once I find a flat node I load up 25 or 30 rounds seat them wayyyyyy long and then at the range play with the seating depth. I would not want to FL resize a .338 Lapua case with the Lee but for anything up to .308 it works fine. At least Lee has a good used primer catch system that works without any modification, that is more than my RC can say. Before I modded it it puked spent primers worse than a frat boy spewing beer at his first keg party. Back on the old Lee turret that my son in law has now I resized some 30 06. It worked.

Biggest misconception and old wives tales on presses is they have something to do with neck alignment, they do not. All press designs have to allow either case movement or die movement to allow the case to align itself with the dies bore, If both the case and the die were held rigid there would be case damage if the case were not perfectly aligned. If you use a conventional press take a case and insert it into the shellholder and wiggle it, if you use a co ax place a die into the press and wiggle it. That movement has to be present for the press to operate correctly. Think of the end of the die in operation like a forcing cone on a revolver guiding a fired bullet into the barrel

edit - tell ya what though as soon as I get a load developed for the Grendel I will size and seat 10 rounds on the RC and 10 rounds on the Lee and see if it shows on paper. When I upgrade to a bushing die I will do the same test with the Lee dies and the Redding dies. I won't be doing that until I get a bolt gun though. With this rifle I want those necks as tight as I can get w/o causing jacket damage

SCJ:

Funny thing is that I bought that press for exactly the same purpose. I mounted it in the back of my pickup truck so I could work on loads while at the range. Lousy press. Poor leverage making sizing brass harder than other presses, a gigantic amount of spring in the press when sizing brass. The adjustable lever always loosened up. All in all a poorly designed and cheaply made press. Wasn't worth the time and effort to deal with it so I mounted it on a bench for pulling bullets. Wanted to sell it but the one thing about used Lee gear is that no one wants used Lee gear.

No one here would deny what you are saying about neck alignment in a press. However, if the press is hard to operate and is prone to breaking when under stress then maybe another brand is a better choice.

No big deal in my view though. Guys can buy and use what ever they want. Also, if Lee gear was as good as Redding for example, at the Lee prices Redding would be out of business by now. And it isn't brand affiliation. It is better products, made with better materiel, to better standards.

LR55

[SCJim]

these were developed at the range using that Lee "O" press. I had already determined that 23.5 of Varget was a good load on a previous range trip so I loaded up 35 or 40 rounds .025 into the lands then took them to the range and used the Lee press at the bench with a RCBS micrometer seating die to play with various depths , measurements checked with a Hornady comparitor. First pic is part of the seating test, second was shooting the remaining bullets at 300. The targets are 300 yard F class 9 and 10 ring replicas. As you can see the Lee seemed to work fine, I am hoping to get some targets like these from the Grendel to post here

first pic is the rough seating test, the second was playing with depths at 300. I go by the holes in the paper to determine if equipment works. On the second up load would have been 195 6X counting the flyer. If I had been shooting in competition I'd take that any day of the week. 97.5% is Master level shooting in F class. Also I need experienced any issues at all full length sizing .308 Win on that old aluminum Lee Turret

[LR1955]

these were developed at the range using that Lee "O" press. I had already determined that 23.5 of Varget was a good load on a previous range trip so I loaded up 35 or 40 rounds .025 into the lands then took them to the range and used the Lee press at the bench with a RCBS micrometer seating die to play with various depths , measurements checked with a Hornady comparitor. First pic is part of the seating test, second was shooting the remaining bullets at 300. The targets are 300 yard F class 9 and 10 ring replicas. As you can see the Lee seemed to work fine, I am hoping to get some targets like these from the Grendel to post here

first pic is the rough seating test, the second was playing with depths at 300. I go by the holes in the paper to determine if equipment works. On the second up load would have been 195 6X counting the flyer. If I had been shooting in competition I'd take that any day of the week. 97.5% is Master level shooting in F class. Also I need experienced any issues at all full length sizing .308 Win on that old aluminum Lee Turret

SCJ:

I am sure that when you win the Nationals in F Class that Lee will give you a sponsorship.

LR55