Solid 400 yard Grendel round in an 18" Barrel

[keystone183]

My worry would be how will that bullet react to hitting a shoulder at 50 yards. If it will still get through to the vitals then it would be my choice but to be honest I would rather have a bullet that will penetrate to the vitals at any reasonable angle and only expand at 300 yards than one that will blow up on the shoulder and expand at 500. But thats just me some might be willing to accept that you absolutely must take archery angle shots.

I have HEARD of this problem......but never actually experienced it. And i have a lot of experience. Not something i would worry about even a little bit.

The number or pigs of all sizes i have shot with the 123 amax through the plate is fairly substantial. No issue. But, our pigs don't get much over 200 usually. Maybe this would be different with hogzilla.

[pajasonc]

I have HEARD of this problem......but never actually experienced it. And i have a lot of experience. Not something i would worry about even a little bit.

The number or pigs of all sizes i have shot with the 123 amax through the plate is fairly substantial. No issue. But, our pigs don't get much over 200 usually. Maybe this would be different with hogzilla.

Well then that is assuring. I was worried the Amax could blow up even at 2400 fps on a deer shoulder. I would think if it can bust through a 200 lb hog shield it should be good to go on a shoulder blade, maybe not a shoulder but if you hit the center shoulder joint square you are missing by a good bit. A shoulder blade is different, I have hit several while hunting with a crossbow. Was a problem in the past, archery hunters know about avoiding the shoulder, but actually with the newer crossbows they blow right through the shoulder blade!

[LRRPF52]

There was one forum member who got a double kill on 2 does at 300yds with a varmint bullet even a number of years back.

If you were shooting the 6.5x284 with a 123gr AMAX at close range, you would still get a DRT I think, and that one will blow it up at 50yds for sure.

One of the Hornady bullet engineers said the thing they like about 6.5 Grendel is that you get such predictable behavior on game because the impact speeds are more moderate, whereas higher velocities introduce more variables that can result in deviation of the wound track from the intended path, fragmentation, etc.

[catorres1]

If I understand you all correctly, sounds like you all feel pretty strongly that the Amax will be a good performer 50 to 400, behind the shoulder or through it on deer and hogs?
If I am correct, what would you say it's expansion threshold is?
And should I expect amaxs (or really the eldm's) to fly with the same trajectory as the ssts, such that the custom turret from Leupold would be accurate for both loads from Hornady?

I am also making the assumption that the eldm is nothing more than an amax with a new tip, maybe I am wrong on this....

Thanks!

[catorres1]

A 123gr impacting in excess of Mach 2 through ribs will still destroy the vitals and give you an exit.

It will retain about 83% of its weight, expand to .600", and penetrate 21.5" of flesh.

If it hits bone, you will still have a lot of penetration and lethal wound cavitation, with usually 2 or 3 projectiles from that point forward.

Most rib impacts have been through-and-throughs, or full penetration with the bullet recovered on the inside of the hide on the far side.

There are hunting outfitters who prefer the Horandy AMAX as their go-to game-taking bullets due to the rapid expansion, accuracy, and weight retention, even though they were meant to be target bullets.

Check out the Terminal Ballistics Chapter in Volume II of the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks:

This info is for the SST, is that correct?

[catorres1]

Keyston, What is the longest range you are hitting these pigs at through the shoulder, and what is your MV?

[pajasonc]

If I understand you all correctly, sounds like you all feel pretty strongly that the Amax will be a good performer 50 to 400, behind the shoulder or through it on deer and hogs?
If I am correct, what would you say it's expansion threshold is?
And should I expect amaxs (or really the eldm's) to fly with the same trajectory as the ssts, such that the custom turret from Leupold would be accurate for both loads from Hornady?

I am also making the assumption that the eldm is nothing more than an amax with a new tip, maybe I am wrong on this....

Thanks!

they should have very similar trajectories as hornady shows the same BC, if what they have on the website is correct! I would love to know if anyone has tested the new eld-m to make sure they actually expand and hold together the same as the amax.

[keystone183]

Keyston, What is the longest range you are hitting these pigs at through the shoulder, and what is your MV?

The longest one I can think of with a known range was at about 250. Boar was probably 125-150. First shot dropped him straight down, he got back up and ran about 15 yards and took another to the midsection. That was from a 20" Lilja. Most of the experience I have is from a 12" bhw, and at closer ranges. I will have to look up the velocities, as I don't remember off the top of my head.

To be clear...I have a lot of confidence in the amax, and have and would take shots all day long on deer and pigs out to 200,250 and probably a ways farther. HOWEVER, if I was on a trophy hunt for deer where I was going to see ranges over 200.....it wouldn't be my first choice. If I was doing something where I had one shot to make count, I'd opt for a more dedicated hunting bullet, like a barnes. But, for general hunting purposes, the amax is very hard to beat.

[catorres1]

The longest one I can think of with a known range was at about 250. Boar was probably 125-150. First shot dropped him straight down, he got back up and ran about 15 yards and took another to the midsection. That was from a 20" Lilja. Most of the experience I have is from a 12" bhw, and at closer ranges. I will have to look up the velocities, as I don't remember off the top of my head.

To be clear...I have a lot of confidence in the amax, and have and would take shots all day long on deer and pigs out to 200,250 and probably a ways farther. HOWEVER, if I was on a trophy hunt for deer where I was going to see ranges over 200.....it wouldn't be my first choice. If I was doing something where I had one shot to make count, I'd opt for a more dedicated hunting bullet, like a barnes. But, for general hunting purposes, the amax is very hard to beat.

Super, thanks for the feedback! So far, my son has killed 2 deer with the Grendel, using the sst. Longest shot was about 110. He hunts through a program that prohibits handloads. They do ask and check, and I would not deceive them, so I have thought of having some custom loads made, even though I do handload.

For myself, I use it for hog hunting, though we have not seen any yet (trying to change that!!). I have a 300 that I am comfortable with, but I built this Grendel because we sometimes go in to the very thick stuff to try and find them, and I wanted something handy and with quick followups should things go sideways.

That said, I would like to be able to be able to take hogs at 400, so am hoping the SST or Amax will do the trick. JBM suggests I should have roughly 1820 fps, based on my elevation, average temps and humidity. Sure wish someone would make a Grendel specific 120 class bullet that is high bc, bonded, but opens down to 1600 or lower. That would be a treat, maybe have to get some of the new black stuff and run it and see how it does....

[keystone183]

Dug out the #'s....here you go...

My BHW 12.5" was averaging 2288fps at 58* with factory 123 Amaxes. ES was 29fps. The 19.5" lilja was running them at 2456fps.

[catorres1]

Sounds like you are running a Lilja 319? That's what I have, and we are within 6 fps of eachother. BTW, JBM and Hornady both list the BC as 510, is that a lot of blue sky, or is it accurate? I note the ELDM is listed at 506....which for all intents and purposes is the same in my book...

[keystone183]

Yep on the 319. As far as the true BC, i haven't put any work into verifying that or not. I know that if you dig around some you will see that it seems to be a little optimistic, but most seem to think the eldm # is probably true for that bullet.

[LRRPF52]

Use .462 for the 123gr SST
.468 for the 123gr AMAX
.506 is doppler derived for the ELD-M, and will replace the 123gr AMAX

You won't see much of a change within 400yds between the factory stated .510 BC and .462 BC, but it does show up as you get past 600yds.

I used .468 G1 when I shot out to 1000yds, elevation was dead-on. I didn't have to adjust my POA on the large gong or the reduced IPSC.

I also entered exact baro pressure and temp.