New Army "Caliber Configuration Study"

[BluntForceTrauma]

I just got an email from Jane's Defence Weekly noting that the Army is, again, studying small arms calibers. I quote:

US Army to Study New Small-arms Calibers
The US Army has announced a 'Caliber Configuration Study' to support two new small-arms programmes, designated CLAWS (Combat Lightweight Automatic Weapon System) and LDAM (Lightweight Dismounted Automatic Machinegun). The announcement was made at an NDIA (National Defense Industries Association) conference held in mid-November at the Army's Picatinny Arsenal.

Anybody got more info about this?

John

[woohoo]

I just got an email from Jane's Defence Weekly noting that the Army is, again, studying small arms calibers. I quote:

US Army to Study New Small-arms Calibers
The US Army has announced a 'Caliber Configuration Study' to support two new small-arms programmes, designated CLAWS (Combat Lightweight Automatic Weapon System) and LDAM (Lightweight Dismounted Automatic Machinegun). The announcement was made at an NDIA (National Defense Industries Association) conference held in mid-November at the Army's Picatinny Arsenal.

Anybody got more info about this?

John

Guardsman posted this on another site.
"Yesterday a reduced NDIA event was held at Picatinny Arsenal. Given the recent Federal shutdown and budget sequestration, it was a much more limited event than last year. However, there was one extremely important public announcement.

The US Army has initiated a new 'Caliber Configuration Study' to support two new programs:

CLAWS - Combat Lightweight Automatic Weapon System
Envisioned to replace carbine (12"), assault rifle (16"), SDM/ DMR (20") and SAW / LMG (24"), may also include a subcompact weapon. Requirement mandates a modular system reconfigurable by the operator with interchangeable barrel, stock, accessories etc. All within the art of the possible. Caliber TBD from pending CCS caliber study.

LDAM - Lighweight Dismounted Automatic Machinegun
Envisioned to replace the Medium Machine Gun and possibly the HMG (.50 BMG).Something like GD .338 Norma MMG, but caliber again TBD from the CCS caliber study.

This announcement means we will see a proper industry-developed, army-endorsed and government-funded effort to produce what we have been discussing ad infinitum here for years.

My expectation is that the following calibres will be evaluated for CLAWS:

- 6.35 / .250 (6.35 x 43 mm)
- 6.5 / .260 (6.5 x 45 mm)
- 6.86 / .270 (6.86 x 45 mm)
- 7.0 / .280 (7 x 46 mm)

All lead free. All convertible to polymer case options.

For LDAM, the requirement is less well-defined at this stage, but is expected to look at larger calibers along the following lines:

- 8.59 / .338 (8.59 x 70 Lapua or 8.59 x 64 mm Norma)
- 9 /.354 (9 x 90 mm MEN)
- 10.6 / .416 (10.6 x 83 Barrett)

Variety of ammunition types. All convertible to polymer case options.

Expect this to drive our discussions to an entirely different level. The most important potential outcome is that the US may again unilaterally adopt a new and different cartridge to the rest of NATO. A standardisation competition will be held to align non-US alliance members use of it, just as we did with 5.56 x 45 mm. "

[BluntForceTrauma]

I'm gonna place my bet early and predict that whatever cartridge results from this will validate the 6.5 Grendel concept: compact case, high SD, high BC bullet. Physics is on our side!

Should be fun to watch what they finally recommend and subsequently do NOT adopt due to institutional inertia.

John

[woohoo]

Going green will mean testing with new bullets, not what is on the market already. There has been enough experimenting with solid copper designs to show that a .25 G7 BC is about the limit with a 5 cal long bullet with a 3 cal ogive in any caliber and all calibers can produce the same BCs. The weights will be apx 115-125gr.
IMO which doesn't mean jack, the 6.35 is too light and the 7mms are too heavy to meet the weight reduction goals. A green 6.5 bullet with a .25 BC will be as long as the 139 Lapua but needs a hybrid ogive along with the other features above.
You're right, they will say yes that looks good but we're sticking with the 5.56 and 308 because it has worked for 50 years.

[LRRPF52]

My prediction:

5.56 NATO polymer case with heavier projectile

7.62 NATO polymer case with some new bullet

They will run into issues with the polymer cases in high-volume, but it will be such that they feel they can improve upon them enough to be viable. Someone will ask if we can have a new .257 or 6.5mm in polymer case to cover all the individual shoulder-fired weapons, which can be converted to with the quick-barrel change system at a later date, while the 5.56 and 7.62 polymer case chamberings are used to test long-term viability of in the current weapon systems to get a fleet survey over x number of years.

The polymer case and quick barrel change capabilities combined will revolutionize soldier's load if the polymer case proves viable. Existing weapon designs for shoulder-fired will likely include:

* LMT MRP AR15 frame
* LMT 7.62 MWSE
* FN SCAR-H

This is an area where the Grendel would actually hold an advantage against all the other polymer cartridges for a shoulder-fired system, and in a word: pressure.

The performance demands for NATO chamberings traditionally have relied on the US's infatuation with cramming high mv performance into as small of a case as possible, which is hard on weapons. It's going to be even harder on "space-aged" plastic/metal hybrid cases. Physics says that a lower-pressure cartridge will allow longer strings of fire, and longer weapon life, in more extreme operating environments (like high temps in the desert, as well as low temps in the arctic).

The best possible outcome would be the phase-out of 7.62 NATO, as long as an equally-capable cartridge and system with less weight and more efficient projectiles replaces it.

Even if they keep 7.62 NATO in a polymer case that is viable in the long-term, it will be a God-send to dismounted Infantry and Combat Arms soldiers.

[BluntForceTrauma]

What's the state-of-the-art in polymer today and in the next five years? My impression is that it's still not so good. Whatever happened to that commercial stuff from a couple years ago? PCM or some such? That still around?

John

P.S. Anyone know the weight savings of polymer vs. steel case?

[woohoo]

PCP is still around and word is they may be starting a new manufacturing facility in the south east.
30% savings but not sure if that is 30% of case weight or 30% of complete cartridge weight.

[Michael]

My prediction:

5.56 NATO polymer case with heavier projectile

7.62 NATO polymer case with some new bullet

Agreed. And if not polymer, some other type of 'new' case and/or bullet material.

Anyone know anything about ceramic bullets?

[hm2 clark]

I predict that any weight savings on a polymer case will be erased by new and added gear to hump. Perhaps a video camera on every soldiers rifle like a fighter planes gun camera to help better (micro)manage the battle space.?

[LRRPF52]

I predict that any weight savings on a polymer case will be erased by new and added gear to hump. Perhaps a video camera on every soldiers rifle like a fighter planes gun camera to help better (micro)manage the battle space.?

Combat cameras have been in-play and a planned addition for Objective Force Warrior, or Force 21-whatever they're calling it now. It started as Land Warrior, and I was in 2 different units that tested Land Warrior systems in the late 1990's, as well as 2000 in the 82nd Airborne.

In addition to the weapon-mounted camera, which is interfaced with the Helmet-Mounted Display, there was also a digital compass, magazine well mounted mouse pad, and planned LRF capabilities integrated with your fire control network. The M4 carbine then became a faster call-for-fire platform, like a SOFLAM, since the radio/computer/gps was integrated into the individual soldier's vest, in a ruggedized, submersible case the size of a small radio.

Not sure where the program is in its current state of development, but they did combat-deploy a unit within a Stryker Brigade with Land Warrior for real-world testing.

[hm2 clark]

Ahh.. but if we had light enough ammo we could then have our guys carry a good enough camera on each rifle so the POTUS watch it all in realtime and give his orders to the soldier in the field directly! Think how much better that would be.

[Guardsman26]

Woohoo,

Thanks for posting my comment from Tony William's forum.

Based on my knowledge of this topic, I think this is the beginning of the bitter end for 5.56mm. It is possible that we could adopt a polymer 7.62mm round, but a polymer 6.5mm Grendel would weigh more or less the same as 5.56mm NATO - or to put it another way: 7.62mm performance in a 5.56mm package.

That has to be compelling. As I've said before, giving a military spec projectile a little more oomph will require a longer case. The latter will also be needed to accommodate a tracer round. So, a 6.5x46mm round firing a 7 or 8 gram bullet at 800-840 mps seems a very likely scenario. Add a lead-free projectile that fragments in the same way as a 5.56mm M855A1 EPR, and you're in business.

Basically, the Grendel is the perfect start point for the CCS. I'm very interested to see how this evolves.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

Going green will mean testing with new bullets, not what is on the market already. There has been enough experimenting with solid copper designs to show that a .25 G7 BC is about the limit with a 5 cal long bullet with a 3 cal ogive in any caliber and all calibers can produce the same BCs. The weights will be apx 115-125gr.
IMO which doesn't mean jack, the 6.35 is too light and the 7mms are too heavy to meet the weight reduction goals. A green 6.5 bullet with a .25 BC will be as long as the 139 Lapua but needs a hybrid ogive along with the other features above.
You're right, they will say yes that looks good but we're sticking with the 5.56 and 308 because it has worked for 50 years.

woohoo,

Re the 6.5 X 45mm case loaded with solid copper projectiles, what cartridge overall length are we looking at?

[woohoo]

woohoo,

Re the 6.5 X 45mm case loaded with solid copper projectiles, what cartridge overall length are we looking at?

If using a design similar to mine with a .25 G7 BC the length of the bullet is about the length of the 139 Lapua. If I seat the bullet where only the boattail is in the powder column the COAL will be 2.7" That is close enough to call it a 308 length. The Carcano diameter case will feed from 308 Pmags so that is what I am using, a lightweight 308 with Pmags. A SCAR 17 would be the best combat platform at this time.

BTW, that is a 111gr bullet. I have another turned bullet designed for the 264/Grendel that weighs 100 grains and has a G7 BC of .25. Figure that can be pushed apx 200 fps faster than a 123 with nearly the same BC as the 123 Amax.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

If using a design similar to mine with a .25 G7 BC the length of the bullet is about the length of the 139 Lapua. If I seat the bullet where only the boattail is in the powder column the COAL will be 2.7" That is close enough to call it a 308 length. The Carcano diameter case will feed from 308 Pmags so that is what I am using, a lightweight 308 with Pmags. A SCAR 17 would be the best combat platform at this time.

BTW, that is a 111gr bullet. I have another turned bullet designed for the 264/Grendel that weighs 100 grains and has a G7 BC of .25. Figure that can be pushed apx 200 fps faster than a 123 with nearly the same BC as the 123 Amax.

"Going Green": a whole new ball game! Thank you.