More counsel and wisdom, please

[bobke]

Am in the early stages of loading for Grendel, now having two only enhances the possibilities. Just acquired an AA barreled 18" and also have a 24" Satern to work with. Here's my issue-am using available info, in new or once fired Lapua brass and just starting in on some fresh Hornady brass, as well. Using Redding type S bushing dies with a .288 bushing and have a .286 available. Loaded rounds are .291 OD, so this bushing seems appropriate. Using available load data with a handful of bullets, from 100/120gr Nosler BT's to 100/120/123 Amax and Sierra 107/123 BTHP, I seem to be approaching a very full case with loads a half to full grain below max-they're at about the base of the neck in many cases with TAC, 8208 and BLC2 and on seating, don't get consistent seating depth to either OAL or length to ogive with a Redding ogive gauge on a 1/2 10000ths caliper. The loads are compressed either quite a bit and enough to seemingly push the bullet out a couple thou' or are reasonably stable and stay put. And they are easily under max loads. So....all said, what's the tightest neck tension you'd want to create and still not collapse a case on seating bullet and/or not disturbing accuracy. Nosler's seem to be pretty consistent, and my older pre "hunting" BT's from year's back with 6.5 JDJ not only shoot well, but have a completely different base/ogive/to lands measurements than newer version, which require deeper seating to clear lands. Any comments and collected wisdom appreciated. Haven't seemed to have had this issue with .223/300 win mag to the degree I have with Grendel and looking for other's feedback. Thanks.

[Deezil]

more info, proper sentencing will make it easier to read too, thats a free tip. How much powder you putting in there?

[bobke]

Deezil-
Thanks for the free grammatical counsel, I'm usually the one with the red pen! Pretty much thought I'd layed this out in simple terms. In loading less than max loads, a half to a grain short of max loads with TAC, 8208 and less so, BLC2, am compressing loads when having to seat certain bullets deeper, to come up short of lands in either barrel. I'm concerned with inconsistency of loaded lengths when compression seems to have tendency to "push back" on seated bullet depth and I get irregular OAL or base to ogive measurements. What is max neck tension advised to hold bullet in compression in this situation without losing accuracy? Common rec is .003 less than loaded round's diameter, in this case, .291-and I'm using a .288 bushing. Sounds like a simple enough explanation to me.

[Deezil]

Im using 8208, how much are you trying to put in there? When I loaded some barnes 120ttsx it was definately a compressed load, going for a 2.255" COL and only 28gr

[Hoot]

When you're reloading using extruded powder, there's a relatively easy trick to get the granules aligned and settled down. All you need is an adjustable electro-pencil and the eraser pulled out of a new, #2 pencil or one of those yellow, disposable mechanical pencils.

Take the eraser and press the electro-pencil point into it about half way. Take the e-p, turn it on and and dial it down until you can barely feel it vibrating. Turn it off and set it aside. Charge a case, hold it between your thumb and middle finger while holding your index finger over the mouth. Turn on the e-p and holding it with the eraser up, press the case base onto the eraser for a count of ten or so. The powder granules will align and integrate tighter, causing the level to drop. Experiment with the e-p power setting and how long you have to hold it in contact with the case to establish optimum results. If you don't dial the power back, the granules tend to jump about so much that they have a hard time settling down. Works like a charm!

If you're having trouble visualizing this concept, chime in and I'll post some pictures. I've seen Varget, loaded right up to the mouth, settle down as far as where the neck meets the shoulder after doing this. I do not use ball powders, so I can only speculate that they would not benefit as much from this process.

Hoot

[CTone03]

bobke,

Hoot's method will probably give the best results, but until you get that going have you tried a drop tube? Here's one that's free:



I secure it to the funnel with a folded up Post-it note wrapped around the pen tube. Just be careful to not let the pen tube slide any out or your powder will get stuck in between it and the underside of the funnel. I get the Post-it note to jam it in there tight and I don't have any worries. Pour slowly and you can get some extra room in the case.

[bobke]

thanks, guys. 8208 has been the primary offender, and as many accolades as it's received here, want it to work, but TAC has been more forgiving and have just started some work with BLC2, in spite of it's dirty reputation, am looking to discover it's accuracy potential, as well. i'll give the drop tube and powder settling a workover this weekend and see where i get with it. 28.0 of 8208 with 123amax has been ok, because of more forgiving loaded length, but the hornady 100 and 120 amax's shouldn't be described as such, as they require a really short 2.16" oal, and it really sets up for a compressed load that i'm not comfortable with just yet. i may also play with the .286 bushing and see if i can get it to hold on to some of the less compressed loads, absent a result with powder settling issues.

[Rambozo]

Yes, use a drop tube, even with ball powders. Use a faster powder, like H335 or H322. You will have no problems with load density and H322, though you might have low port pressure. It's a very good powder, extremely consistent. H322 is my preferred powder.

[killerb]

i purchase an upper with a 18" satern liberty barrel. i have put a little over 100 rounds thru the barrel.first 60 rounds wolf 120 grain ammo to help break in the barrel. reloaded some hornady 120 amax and nosler 120 ballistic tip. shot 2 5 round groups with each. The 120 max were within 1/2" at 100 yards and the nosler right around 1" groups. i settled on thI amax bullet and this past weeekend I put 20 rounds in the bullseye that a 50 ceny piece would cover.
reload data
28.0 grains of IMR XBR 8208
Hornady 120 grain amax bullets
cci small rifle magnum primers
hornady brass
col.2235

[Hoot]

Okay, just so you can see how easy this is, here's some images. Warning not shot in a studio and not by a professional.

I got this electro-pencil at the local True Value hardware store and stole the eraser from my daughter's book bag.



Here's the eraser pressed onto the tip



Here a case full of 8208 XBR



~10 seconds of vibe



Here's the reduction. Note, it is more pronounced the bigger the extruded granules are. Sorry about the focus...

Oops, we're limited to 4 images. To be continued...

Enjoy,

Hoot

[Hoot]

Continuing...



As you can see, there is plenty of room to be reclaimed once you burp out the air.

Hoot

EDIT: FWIW, that's 32 gr of 8208 XBR. Warning That does not mean you should load 32 gr of 8208 XBR.

[bobke]

Your idea of using some form of vibration made me think about using my older platform style vibrating tumbler. I'm going to try it in the morning with a tray of thrown rounds, covered with a book or something similar, screw down the vibration level and see what happens. May be able to run a whole loading block of fifty at a time, if careful. Never too old to learn new tricks-thanks for the inspiration.

[Hoot]

Your idea of using some form of vibration made me think about using my older platform style vibrating tumbler. I'm going to try it in the morning with a tray of thrown rounds, covered with a book or something similar, screw down the vibration level and see what happens. May be able to run a whole loading block of fifty at a time, if careful. Never too old to learn new tricks-thanks for the inspiration.

Be mindful of the fact that as you decouple the energy transfer from the energy source to the destination, you are probably going to have to to adjust the intensity and exposure time. Factors that can impact the effectiveness of the process are things like adding mass that is greater than the destination, between the energy source and destination, such as a heavy wood tray or the looseness of the energy coupling, such as the cases jiggling in the tray.

What I do in practice is have the e-p next to my press. I throw a charge, pour it in the case, start the next charge going, turn to the press, pick up the e-p and vibe the case, place the case in the press and seat the bullet. Since the seating process takes less time than my dispensing powder scale takes to drop the next load, adding the time for the vibe does not negatively impact the cycle time. Obviously, it you use a progressive loader, that would take more planning to implement.

My inspiration came from a summer job while I was working my way through college back in the 70's, at the Lever Brothers soap factory. I kept the machinery on a laundry powder production line working correctly. One stage involved an empty box moving into place below a spout that dispensed fluffy powder. The plate below the box vibrated and you could adjust the vibration frequency and intensity to settle the powder as efficiently (quickly) as possible. As we changed different powder products, based upon demand, it required re-tuning the vibrator. It gave me a good sense for fluid (loose powder) behavior in the presence of alternating energy around it. It was a great educational opportunity outside the classroom. Probably why I wound up working in production engineering for many years. Best of all, it paid well for a college student as opposed to scrubbing bank floors every evening, which I did before I landed that internship.

Hoot

[bobke]

So I tested my scheme first thing this morning. Pretty unscientific, and had to try a few variations before arriving what I think will be a future solution. I have an old VibraTek tumbler/cleaner that has a platform on one side and round tub on other for case cleaning. Loaded 25 rounds with 28.25gr of 8208 and they basically came up just short of neck/shoulder junction, as thrown from RCBS measure. Put a stack of about 50 std letter type paper targets on top to soft seal the case mouth, and a half full box of cast bullets on top for some weight, turned the vibration down and ran for about 30 seconds or so on the platform. Dropped charge from about .325 from top to about .340 from top or a .015 improvement in apparent room/capacity. Not much, but visible difference. Feel like duration and fooling with some variables will improve this, but if able to run a whole tray of 50 rounds at a time without affecting charge weights or any other constants, I'll have gotten where I need to be. Again, thanks for feedback-very helpful. If I can figure out how to post pics of same, I'll throw them up here.

[txgunner00]

A shooting buddy of mine recently rigged a small vibrator he ripped out of a massaging pillow to his Dillon 650 powder drop. After some fine tuning he was able to get Varget to throw dead on with every pull. Before he was getting as much as +-0.5 gr. variation. He now loads his .308 match ammo on the press and gets just as good performance as his single loaded rounds.